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Virgin Queen» Forums » Rules

Subject: Winter through inland waterway? rss

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Joel C
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I suspect I already know the answer to this, but are Antwerp and Rotterdam considered adjacent to the north sea for purpose of winter movement if the main port is enemy controlled?
 
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Steven
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I am the Ottomans in this game with Joel and curious about this answer. I actually want the Spainish army to survive, because as he is the only one doing anything to slow the Protestants. His army is besieging Antwerp (Don John died) and currently is surrounded by Protestant political control, including Antwerp.
 
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Ed Beach
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Tesh wrote:
I suspect I already know the answer to this, but are Antwerp and Rotterdam considered adjacent to the north sea for purpose of winter movement if the main port is enemy controlled?


No. This would be covered as part of "use this path for movement, intercept, avoiding battle, line of communication or computing the nearest space" as mentioned in the rule in Section 2.5.
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Steven
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Just to clarify Ed, this is as long as the Protestants control Flushing, the Spanish cannot winter from Antwerp across the Inland waterway, OR do you mean that an inland waterway never be used as a path to winter units?
 
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Joel C
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Thanks for the quick reply Ed, I feared this might be the case.
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Alex Ferguson
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At the risk of flogging a... slightly comatose horse, surely 20.4 rules this out in any case, as a space on the path would be enemy-controlled?

(This seems more clearcut to me that 2.5, in fact, as I wouldn't presume to say whether "Land Units Returning Home" was "movement", per se. Though the word "moved" does admittedly appear!)
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Greg Forster
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SW_Cygnus wrote:
Just to clarify Ed, this is as long as the Protestants control Flushing, the Spanish cannot winter from Antwerp across the Inland waterway, OR do you mean that an inland waterway never be used as a path to winter units?


Per Ed's comment, just treat winter movement the same as other movement under the rules laid out in Section 2.5. So you can winter move through the spaces if you control them.
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Joel C
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FergusWindbag wrote:
At the risk of flogging a... slightly comatose horse, surely 20.4 rules this out in any case, as a space on the path would be enemy-controlled?

(This seems more clearcut to me that 2.5, in fact, as I wouldn't presume to say whether "Land Units Returning Home" was "movement", per se. Though the word "moved" does admittedly appear!)


If the North Sea was adjacent to the inland ports (per the original question), then no space on the path would be enemy controlled,
 
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Alex Ferguson
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Tesh wrote:
If the North Sea was adjacent to the inland ports (per the original question), then no space on the path would be enemy controlled,

I see what you mean. That'd be a real stretch, though, both in terms of what's a "path", intuitively, and in terms of what 16.7 permits for naval transport. Anyhoo, all moot now, post-Ed.
 
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William Bentley
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Reading the discussion on what Ed's ruling means, I can't help but think of the religious discussion that ensues in the back of the crowd in Life of Brian when one of the Beatitudes is misheard as "blessed are the cheesemakers"

Word of Ed® is truly a miraculous thing.

As the Prots in this situation, I've spent my entire turn closing doors on the Spanish besieging Antwerp. Will update when the turn concludes.
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William Bentley
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As the Prots in this situation, I've spent my entire turn closing doors on the Spanish(2Ldrs/9R/3M) besieging Antwerp(4R). First, a negotiated Emden with E flipped Mons, Maastricht and Utrecht. I rebelled Brussels and displaced the mostly mercs that were left to garrison, thus sealing off the entry route into Holland.

Next I promised a card next turn for Don John's Untimely Death thereby severely restricting Spain's ability to assault the 4R in Antwerp or to even begin escaping the trap. Then in a previously arranged deal of 2 cards to England to use VQ's ability to pick up cards. She did so to grab and play Sea Beggars. I love this card-more troops, a navy, another space and piracy! Brielle joined the previously controlled Flushing closing off the North Sea exits.

A promised Sermon in Scotland to remove F influence serendipitously ended up giving me Scotland as an allied minor later in the turn. Lastly, I rebelled again to gain Dunkirk and Lille and sailed my shiny new navy to contest any Spanish attempt to desperately siege and assault Flushing or Dunkirk for escape.

Spain then moved Alva with 6R to Ghent where my 1R was joined by lucky interceptions by 2R from Brussels and 1R from Dunkirk. Field battle at Ghent looked grim indeed for Spain at 7 to 5 with even a tie resulting in his utter destruction. Luck ran out for the Prots though and Spain won 2-0, the remaining Dutch retreated to Dunkirk, but declined to try another field battle as the board made it clear that no field battle card help was forthcoming from the previous Ghent field battle.

Alva and 6 wintered out and the remaining Antwerp besiegers took attrition on way to Amsterdam. Ahab just misses landing the Great White Whale.
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Steven
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As the Ottomans, I should note that the Spanish could have completely avoided the situation if he had converted spaces before he moved to besiege Antwerp. Instead he besieged Antwerp straight away and ignored all the Protestant spaces (nearly 1/2-2/3 of the Netherlands was converted to the Protestant faith at the beginning of turn 2).

Spain had Council of Troubles too, but he played it late in the turn and only as operations to save his men. If he could have played it the impulse after Prots rebelled in Brussels and he would have flipped the space back, converted many spaces back to Catholic, and reopened his supply lines...

If Spain had been crafty and used his treasure to assualt and suppress heresy after playing Council of Troubles as an event, Will would have been singing a different tune!
 
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Chris Montgomery
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SW_Cygnus wrote:
As the Ottomans, I should note that the Spanish could have completely avoided the situation if he had converted spaces before he moved to besiege Antwerp. Instead he besieged Antwerp straight away and ignored all the Protestant spaces (nearly 1/2-2/3 of the Netherlands was converted to the Protestant faith at the beginning of turn 2).

Spain had Council of Troubles too, but he played it late in the turn and only as operations to save his men. If he could have played it the impulse after Prots rebelled in Brussels and he would have flipped the space back, converted many spaces back to Catholic, and reopened his supply lines...

If Spain had been crafty and used his treasure to assualt and suppress heresy after playing Council of Troubles as an event, Will would have been singing a different tune!


All quite true, but it looks as a simple case of the Spanish player not being aware of a crucial rule until it was too late. I am sure if he had known that his retreat was cut off, he would have done anything necessary to reopen his LOC. I know that the Protestant really went to work trying to get him hemmed in, but someone really should have pointed out the danger.
 
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Alex Ferguson
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cmontgo2 wrote:
All quite true, but it looks as a simple case of the Spanish player not being aware of a crucial rule until it was too late. I am sure if he had known that his retreat was cut off, he would have done anything necessary to reopen his LOC. I know that the Protestant really went to work trying to get him hemmed in, but someone really should have pointed out the danger.

(Well, an open path for Winter Return Home, which isn't quite the same.)

Is that really the case here? There are certainly some... inobvious and perhaps intuitive aspects to the inland waterways rule, but I don't think this is one of them. If I'm entirely surrounded by hostile control markers, I'm going to think I'm in trouble whether or not one of the connections is a wiggly line. (Or are you referring to the Wintering rule itself?)

In general, it's a fine line between "rule-reminding" and "unsolicited strategic groupthink". But given those 44 pages of rules...
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Chris Montgomery
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FergusWindbag wrote:
cmontgo2 wrote:
All quite true, but it looks as a simple case of the Spanish player not being aware of a crucial rule until it was too late. I am sure if he had known that his retreat was cut off, he would have done anything necessary to reopen his LOC. I know that the Protestant really went to work trying to get him hemmed in, but someone really should have pointed out the danger.

(Well, an open path for Winter Return Home, which isn't quite the same.)

Is that really the case here? There are certainly some... inobvious and perhaps intuitive aspects to the inland waterways rule, but I don't think this is one of them. If I'm entirely surrounded by hostile control markers, I'm going to think I'm in trouble whether or not one of the connections is a wiggly line. (Or are you referring to the Wintering rule itself?)

In general, it's a fine line between "rule-reminding" and "unsolicited strategic groupthink". But given those 44 pages of rules...


I could easily have seen myself as that player, thinking that I could return home at winter. It's just not something that a person would necessarily think of and in the interest of keeping the game on a level footing, I'm just saying that if I had been in that game and noticed the potential danger, that I would have said something rather than let a player walk ignorantly into a trap - a trap sprung not because a good trap was set that the player tried to escape from and failed, but a trap that caught him simply because he didn't know the full breadth and scope of the rules.

It just seems like one of those situations where a gentle reminder would have been appropriate: "Just so you know, dude, if Brielle falls, you can't get out in Winter. Just wanted to make sure you knew that."

I'm just saying that by the tenor of the OP, it sounds like he was the victim of a rule he had either forgotten, or simply didn't see until it bit him. In those situations, where I see that happening in a game, I usually say something - even if I'm the guy setting the trap.
 
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