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Subject: America's Questionable Foreign Policy rss

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Daniel
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Making the World Safe for Islamism
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/making-the-w...
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What exactly have we gained from 30 years of interventions in the Middle East — that China lost out on by staying out?
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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Who would have thought that this would happen?

As to your question, what China has lost out on is the emnity of the Arab world. Rather Ironic goven how they have reacted to Islamists in China.
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Moshe Callen
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LOL
I'm sorry but no US president in the last at least 30 years has deal with the real world when talkign about this part of the world. To imply America has this degree of influence on what goes on in the ME/Muslim world is simply absurd.

Was America using the dictators here? Of course. Were they using america? Of course.

America bases its foreign policy on what it has decided must be true and isn't really interested in pesky contradictory facts any more than the UN or EU are.

I'm sure I'll get all kids of angry responses but you people need to get over yourselves. Here's an dea: maybe Muslims think for themselves as individuals and they do so in ways that have little or nothing to do with the West in the overwhelming majority of cases. Guess what? They're even *gasp* normal peple who can think, act and make choices for themselves like grown-ups even!
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Daniel
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I'm not sure what your point is Moshe.
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dandechino wrote:
I'm not sure what your point is Moshe.


I think what Moshe is saying is that the Western World is still so self-involved and so arrogant and riddled with hubris that they see the Middle East as if the people there were just millions of Wogs who are all dancing to our tune.

China is even more arrogant and it would amaze me if any nation, no matter how 3rd World, doesn't just toss them out on their racist asses the instant the cash flow dries up.
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Daniel
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DWTripp wrote:

I think what Moshe is saying is that the Western World is still so self-involved and so arrogant and riddled with hubris that they see the Middle East as if the people there were just millions of Wogs who are all dancing to our tune.


I think that's what the article is saying in a sense, that US Govt interventionism has been foolish not to mention immoral. I just didn't understand the tone it was said in as if it countered the OP.
 
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Daniel
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chaendlmaier wrote:
To introduce democracy be force, I believe a country most have already been economically as well as educationally advanced, and - if it ideologically opposes democracy - thoroughly beaten. Like Germany.


It was a democracy that elected Hitler to power... ninja



 
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dandechino wrote:
chaendlmaier wrote:
To introduce democracy be force, I believe a country most have already been economically as well as educationally advanced, and - if it ideologically opposes democracy - thoroughly beaten. Like Germany.


It was a democracy that elected Hitler to power... ninja

Not quite. Hindenburg appointed him Chancellor after a group of industrialists convinced him (Hindenburg) that Hitler was the only alternative to a Communist takeover.
 
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dandechino wrote:
I'm not sure what your point is Moshe.

Why am not surprised?
 
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Daniel
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whac3 wrote:
dandechino wrote:
I'm not sure what your point is Moshe.

Why am not surprised?


Well I posted an article that mainly argued for the US Govt to mind its own business rather than using the middle east and you accuse me of being an arrogant American. That's what I don't get. It would seem that it's arrogance to continue doing whatever they please in someone else's lands as if those other people don't know what's best for themselves.
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Daniel
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But maybe you're right. Nothing the US Govt does influences anything in the ME.

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whac3 wrote:
LOL
I'm sorry but no US president in the last at least 30 years has deal with the real world when talkign about this part of the world. To imply America has this degree of influence on what goes on in the ME/Muslim world is simply absurd.

Was America using the dictators here? Of course. Were they using america? Of course.

America bases its foreign policy on what it has decided must be true and isn't really interested in pesky contradictory facts any more than the UN or EU are.

I'm sure I'll get all kids of angry responses but you people need to get over yourselves. Here's an dea: maybe Muslims think for themselves as individuals and they do so in ways that have little or nothing to do with the West in the overwhelming majority of cases. Guess what? They're even *gasp* normal peple who can think, act and make choices for themselves like grown-ups even!


Maybe Isralae shouod learn to stand on it's own to feet and refsue any more American money?
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whac3 wrote:
LOL
I'm sorry but no US president in the last at least 30 years has deal with the real world when talkign about this part of the world. To imply America has this degree of influence on what goes on in the ME/Muslim world is simply absurd.

Was America using the dictators here? Of course. Were they using america? Of course.

America bases its foreign policy on what it has decided must be true and isn't really interested in pesky contradictory facts any more than the UN or EU are.

I'm sure I'll get all kids of angry responses but you people need to get over yourselves. Here's an dea: maybe Muslims think for themselves as individuals and they do so in ways that have little or nothing to do with the West in the overwhelming majority of cases. Guess what? They're even *gasp* normal peple who can think, act and make choices for themselves like grown-ups even!
Uhm, aren't you saying the same thing that the article is? Basically to think that we can put in place a policy to decide the fate of the middle east is folly and costs us dearly. Better to keep our money.
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I love the uncontained nostalgia for the Cold War by painting China as the new USSR.
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HeinzGuderian wrote:
I love the uncontained nostalgy for the Cold War by painting China as the new USSR.


Actualy they are far more of a real ecconomic threat to the USA.
 
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dandechino wrote:
Making the World Safe for Islamism
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/making-the-w...
Quote:
What exactly have we gained from 30 years of interventions in the Middle East — that China lost out on by staying out?


Africa, the middle east, and many areas of the world have been prevented from becoming another China while american multi national corporations extracted their cheap natural resources.

No military threat to the U.S. from africa. No real military threat from the middle east.

Sometimes, I think giving money to them is a secret plan to keep them balkanized.

If we got out of the way, Africa would collapse into one country (by conquest). it would be horrible for the current inhabitants- but in 20-30 years, a united nation would be there in its place. (See "Hero" for how this helped China-- a wonderfully nationalistic piece.)

The US (and other large nations) gain a lot of value from continued balkanization of the remaining areas of the globe.
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maxo-texas wrote:
dandechino wrote:
Making the World Safe for Islamism
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/making-the-w...
Quote:
What exactly have we gained from 30 years of interventions in the Middle East — that China lost out on by staying out?


Africa, the middle east, and many areas of the world have been prevented from becoming another China while american multi national corporations extracted their cheap natural resources.

No military threat to the U.S. from africa. No real military threat from the middle east.

Sometimes, I think giving money to them is a secret plan to keep them balkanized.

If we got out of the way, Africa would collapse into one country (by conquest). it would be horrible for the current inhabitants- but in 20-30 years, a united nation would be there in its place. (See "Hero" for how this helped China-- a wonderfully nationalistic piece.)


You mean like the Indian sub-continant?
 
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That's a pretty good example.

If they ever recover from the colonization period and get past the bribery and corruption issues, they would be a major power.

We are down to about 100 million in aid to india now. It's still probably enough to keep them from fully "growing up" and standing on their own two feet.

Sure, they have a smaller economy but they have a lot of very smart people, decent natural resources, and cheap labor.
 
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maxo-texas wrote:
That's a pretty good example.

If they ever recover from the colonization period and get past the bribery and corruption issues, they would be a major power.

We are down to about 100 million in aid to india now. It's still probably enough to keep them from fully "growing up" and standing on their own two feet.

Sure, they have a smaller economy but they have a lot of very smart people, decent natural resources, and cheap labor.


I thought that the Indian sub-continant comprised two countreis that are inimicably hostile to each other and a third made out of one of the othr two. I am not seeing unity but division, indeed at this time in Africa we are seeing the saem kind of national breakups in places like the Sudan.
 
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stpauler wrote:
That's not to make the US sound heroic or necessary, but there are a lot of balls that we've helped to keep floating in the air that would need other hands to keep juggling.
Obligatory wikipedia link in response. The White Man's Burden Such arrogance to decide that we know what is best for the middle east, when in fact the West ends up doing what is in our best interests regardless and leaving the ME to suffer.
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mtagge wrote:
stpauler wrote:
That's not to make the US sound heroic or necessary, but there are a lot of balls that we've helped to keep floating in the air that would need other hands to keep juggling.
Obligatory wikipedia link in response. The White Man's Burden Such arrogance to decide that we know what is best for the middle east, when in fact the West ends up doing what is in our best interests regardless and leaving the ME to suffer.
'

Nothing wrong with that. Imperialism is the natural course geopolitics must take.
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slatersteven wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
That's a pretty good example.

If they ever recover from the colonization period and get past the bribery and corruption issues, they would be a major power.

We are down to about 100 million in aid to india now. It's still probably enough to keep them from fully "growing up" and standing on their own two feet.

Sure, they have a smaller economy but they have a lot of very smart people, decent natural resources, and cheap labor.


I thought that the Indian sub-continant comprised two countreis that are inimicably hostile to each other and a third made out of one of the othr two. I am not seeing unity but division, indeed at this time in Africa we are seeing the saem kind of national breakups in places like the Sudan.


So you are pulling in Pakistan?
The nukes will probably prevent that unification.
But India really doesn't need to pull them in.

Neither would Africa need to have every nation. If you just had 80% of the nations in one large african supernation, it would probably be sufficient.
 
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maxo-texas wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
That's a pretty good example.

If they ever recover from the colonization period and get past the bribery and corruption issues, they would be a major power.

We are down to about 100 million in aid to india now. It's still probably enough to keep them from fully "growing up" and standing on their own two feet.

Sure, they have a smaller economy but they have a lot of very smart people, decent natural resources, and cheap labor.


I thought that the Indian sub-continant comprised two countreis that are inimicably hostile to each other and a third made out of one of the othr two. I am not seeing unity but division, indeed at this time in Africa we are seeing the saem kind of national breakups in places like the Sudan.


So you are pulling in Pakistan?
The nukes will probably prevent that unification.
But India really doesn't need to pull them in.

Neither would Africa need to have every nation. If you just had 80% of the nations in one large african supernation, it would probably be sufficient.


Would that not rather depend on which 20% remained independant?
 
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Emperador Carlos wrote:
Nothing wrong with that. Imperialism is the natural course geopolitics must take.


Bullshit. There is no "natural" state of politics.

If you had stated that Imperialism was a logical development of the political structure of Nation-State capitalism that arose together with colonialism, we could argue. "Imperialism" as "natural"? Nope.
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HeinzGuderian wrote:
Emperador Carlos wrote:
Nothing wrong with that. Imperialism is the natural course geopolitics must take.


Bullshit. There is no "natural" state of politics.

If you had stated that Imperialism was a logical development of the political structure of Nation-State capitalism that arose together with colonialism, we could argue. "Imperialism" as "natural"? Nope.


Yeah its absolutely wrong. Maybe once when all you had to do to takeover a country was to march some troops into the capital, have some naval power lurking offshore and declare it under your control.

Today we have the strongest military force in the world by orders of magnitude struggling to control pissweak contries with no standing forces at all.

Nukes prevent any forceable unification and Africa is as riven by tribal conflict as it ever was. Who exactly is going to go about conquering each of the countries there and holding onto them, South Africa?
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