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Subject: What is a good summary of what Obama care really does rss

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Mac Mcleod
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Hit me with a good conservative but no crazy writeup and a good liberal but non crazy writeup.

Anyone indicating this is going to be a complete catastrophe and result in us living in bunkers or it will increase or decrease employment by more than 1% is probably too wacko on this.

Thanks1!

If you care to write up the "gist" in a dozen sentences or less, I'd love to see your opinion.
 
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Daniel
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Liberty gets smaller. The power elite get bigger. You get poorer. It's really simple.
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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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Nothing for me.
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dandechino wrote:
Liberty gets smaller. The power elite get bigger. You get poorer. It's really simple.


Who do you consider the "power elite" and how do they come "bigger" from an alternative, unmandated scenario?

I'd say mandatory insurance pools benefit the public at large, and only disadvantages economically young, healthy citizens (who will some day be neither young or healthy) and HMO's profits.
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What Obama care really does is piss off stupid people.
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An attempt at a non-partisan review.

The existing stuff (that polls show most people approve of) stays in place:
* Insurers cannot enact a lifetime cap on benefits.
* Kids can stay on their parents benefits until age 26.
* Children can't be turned down for pre-existing conditions.
* Preventive screenings are provided with no charge or co-pay.
* Insurers cannot drop you for becoming sick.
* Seniors still get the rebate for covering the "Medicare donut hole."
* You may get a rebate if your insurer (who is legally compelled to audit administrative costs and executive bonus pay) is found to have not contributed enough cash towards actual medical care.

Later this year:
* The preventive care umbrella of free, no co-pay services expands to colonoscopies, and many women's health services such as mammograms, contraception, and domestic violence screenings

In 2013, if you make > $200,000/yr:
* your taxes will go up 1%
* you will be assessed an additional capital gains tax of 3.8%

Most of the new mandates don't start until 2014:
* You MUST have health insurance or you WILL be fined (on a rolling scale, which increases every year.)
* Insurance companies will have to sell coverage to everyone, regardless of their medical history, and will have to restrict how much they vary premiums based on age.
* If you are an employer with >50 employees, you will be fined/taxed $2,000 per employee for not offering insurance to fulltime workers.
* Health-insurance exchanges are to be established for those who cannot obtain coverage otherwise.
* Medicaid eligibility increases
* Small business tax credits for offering insurance kick in.

And speaking generally, since healthcare costs haven't stopped going relentlessly up, your healthcare is likely to get more expensive. Not to mention insurers will be mandated to provide better coverage, thus ensuring that they will be passing that cost onto you as well.

One big question mark is this:
If insurers end up raising premiums by so much that employers cannot afford them, does this result in people being dumped en masse into these new "insurance exchanges," and will these mini-markets bear that strain?

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Jonny Lawless
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My insurance company was forced to cover my colonoscopy.
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Daniel
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HeinzGuderian wrote:
dandechino wrote:
Liberty gets smaller. The power elite get bigger. You get poorer. It's really simple.


Who do you consider the "power elite" and how do they come "bigger" from an alternative, unmandated scenario?

I'd say mandatory insurance pools benefit the public at large, and only disadvantages economically young, healthy citizens (who will some day be neither young or healthy) and HMO's profits.


The power elite are the ones behind major political parties, international banking, war profiteering, corporations etc.

Mandatory insurance schemes benefit insurance companies that we are forced to buy a product from. If you complain about healthcare costs in America, the problem is created by how much the government is already involved in jacking up the system. The government breaks something and then comes along and claims that they're the only one that can now fix it.

Here's a reading list of how and why Obamacare will fail and why the free-market is the solution: http://mises.org/daily/3737/Why-ObamaCare-Will-Fail-A-Readin...
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Note beforehand that this isn't any sort of personal thing: I just would like to elevate a bit the usual level of discussion here in RSP (which usually is repetitive bordering on pathetic).

dandechino wrote:
The power elite are the ones behind major political parties, international banking, war profiteering, corporations etc.


Fair enough.

Quote:
Mandatory insurance schemes benefit insurance companies that we are forced to buy a product from.


This is what deserves a justification. Insurance companies gain market, but are also forced to cover people who they would otherwise renounce to cover - i.e. expensive, undesirable clients which are made affordable by spreading risk. I don't see it's self evident whether the move is revenue-increasing, revenue-decreasing or revenue-neutral.

Do you have access to any empirical study resolving that question that I am not aware of?

Quote:
If you complain about healthcare costs in America, the problem is created by how much the government is already involved in jacking up the system.


This certainly needs explanation, given that there are national healthcare systems in many Western countries that simultaneously outperform American healthcare and cost much, much less. Government intervention alone can't be the problem if more Government intervention can result in much better & much cheaper healthcare systems.

Would you like to explain the contradiction?

Quote:
The government breaks something and then comes along and claims that they're the only one that can now fix it.


I'm not sure how this is the Government's trademark.

I mean, neoliberalism has been fanfaring for 30 years how regulation was the only problem with everything. After extensive deregulation we now have a completely broken economy, the greatest recession in many decades, stagnant or decreasing wages throughout the industralized world, acute and broadening inequality, record poverty rates and increasing social exclusion. Yet the only solution given is "more deregulation".

How is that different from Statist stubborness?

Quote:
Here's a reading list of how and why Obamacare will fail and why the free-market is the solution: http://mises.org/daily/3737/Why-ObamaCare-Will-Fail-A-Readin...


I find it utterly frustrating (particularly given the strongly anti-intellectual stance of Austrian economics) that the only 4 journal papers in that list are published in journals for the already convinced, i.e. journals in which editorial review implies a priori ideological conformity with the political positions of the editorial board. While I understand the situation in Economics journals, I have always thought that if Austrian economics cared to conform to rigurous academic work they could make interesting contributions to the field.
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Daniel
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If you agree with my power elite analysis, why would you trust them to know what's best for you? Or trust them with anything? Do you still think the power in government is retained by the little people and that the power elite can be circumvented? My argument is still that the power elite win. Little people lose. Whether or not the long term or short term benefits are for insurance companies or government bureaucrats, we still have less freedom, less choice, less competition, and less innovation in health care.
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Daniel
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In regards to your last comment about Austrian economics, is it your point of view that they don't play with numbers like a proper Keynesian?
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This summary from the Kaiser Family Foundation is a good and nonpartisan summary. (warning: PDF)
 
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Joshua Gardner
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Not me, but an "Explain it like I'm 5" explanation from Reddit:


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Daniel
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He needs insurance to pay for healthcare because government drove up the price of health care with decades of interference.

A free market drives prices down in the long run. Even in the robber baron days, with big massive monopolies that dominated whole industries, they brought the price of goods to the consumer down. The ones who complained and tried to get anti-monopoly legislation were who? You guessed it, the competition who couldn't compete fairly.
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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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dandechino wrote:
He needs insurance to pay for healthcare because government drove up the price of health care with decades of interference.

A free market drives prices down in the long run. Even in the robber baron days, with big massive monopolies that dominated whole industries, they brought the price of goods to the consumer down. The ones who complained and tried to get anti-monopoly legislation were who? You guessed it, the competition who couldn't compete fairly.


True, but the free market also essentially murders people... innocent ones... your children and your wife and your parents and relatives. We've long since decided that we're not willing to pay that price for inexpensive health care.
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MGK
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dandechino wrote:
He needs insurance to pay for healthcare because government drove up the price of health care with decades of interference.

A free market drives prices down in the long run.


I love it when a fresh libertarian comes to RSP and makes the same wrong arguments we've discussed twenty times already. It is like seeing a pegasus get its wings. Except pegasi are much more awesome.
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Drew1365 wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
I love it when a fresh libertarian comes to RSP and makes the same wrong arguments we've discussed twenty times already.


You speak as if you were right all twenty times.


Well, you and yours have been wrong all twenty times, so. Yeah. Pretty much.

(But really, I love it when people pretend that the Austrian school is anything more than a radical fringe whose ideas have been shown to not work in practice, as opposed to mainstream economic theory. It's never not funny!)
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Daniel
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mightygodking wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
I love it when a fresh libertarian comes to RSP and makes the same wrong arguments we've discussed twenty times already.


You speak as if you were right all twenty times.


Well, you and yours have been wrong all twenty times, so. Yeah. Pretty much.

(But really, I love it when people pretend that the Austrian school is anything more than a radical fringe whose ideas have been shown to not work in practice, as opposed to mainstream economic theory. It's never not funny!)


Yeah because all the establishment types were right about the housing crises years ahead of time! Oh wait, that was Ron Paul and the Austrians warning about that. And that Federal Reserve system has really eliminated all the market crashes and removed all depressions. Yeah, Keynesianism has worked out just fine if you don't mind double digit unemployment and inflation.
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dandechino wrote:
Yeah because all the establishment types were right about the housing crises years ahead of time! Oh wait, that was Ron Paul and the Austrians warning about that.


Pretty much everyone was warning about the housing crash, that was the obvious problem. The less obvious problem was the knock on effects a house crash might cause, but even with that there were still a fair few people saying it was going to happen, but the political deregulators won the day and nothing was done.
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Dolphinandrew wrote:
dandechino wrote:
Yeah because all the establishment types were right about the housing crises years ahead of time! Oh wait, that was Ron Paul and the Austrians warning about that.


Pretty much everyone was warning about the housing crash, that was the obvious problem. The less obvious problem was the knock on effects a house crash might cause, but even with that there were still a fair few people saying it was going to happen, but the political deregulators won the day and nothing was done.


And then the government swooped in and saved them when they fucked up, showing them that there's no consequence to their actions. Not saying letting them fail was better, but not letting them fail when they fucked up was not libertarian. It was quite the opposite.
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mightygodking wrote:
Well, you and yours have been wrong all twenty times, so. Yeah. Pretty much


Methinks you and I have a different defination of "wrong".....
 
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Dolphinandrew wrote:
Pretty much everyone was warning about the housing crash, that was the obvious problem.


Not really. Far from it. Krugman, Bernanke, Repubs, Dems, they were all pushing for more and telling the little people the the system really was fine.
 
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chaendlmaier wrote:

Stefan Frank, who writes for the radical leftist magazine Konkret which I'm subscribed to, has prognosticated back in 2002 the house crash, the banking crisis, the fall of the dollar and the boom for gold. [1] Therefore, obviously, anarcho-socialism is the best economic model.

1) http://www.stefan-frank-texte.de/mittel_gegen_depressionen.h...


Cool, Curt. I'm not arguing that Austrians are the only ones who saw it. Those in power either saw it and did nothing or had no clue. Policies at the Fed, and in certain government programs that distorted the market, caused it.
 
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dandechino wrote:
Not really. Far from it. Krugman, Bernanke, Repubs, Dems, they were all pushing for more and telling the little people the the system really was fine.


Krugman was warning people that the housing bubble that began in 2002 was unsustainable as early as 2004 and was advocating policies that would have decelerated and reversed it.
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