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Subject: Taxation, power points, and ending the game rss

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John Rogers
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In my solo learning play of Imperial last night, Britain was on 24 of the power track and 15+ on the tax track going into a taxation action. Britain had a total of 19 million in tax revenue (5 factories and 9 tax chips); however, the tax track only goes up to 15+ and the rules do not state as to whether or not a nation would continue to get power points beyond the 15+ position of the track.

Since taxation is the only way a player can gain power points, is it even possible for Britain to continue to get power points and thus end the game?
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Nathan Rhodes
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Yes.

Whenever a nation taxes, it will gain power points if its taxation capacity is above the first (2-5) level. Thus, the tax capacity does not have to increase from one taxation action to the next. It can even decrease.

In your case, Britain gained 10 power points for having 15+ tax on its previous tax action. Even though its marker did not move before the next tax action, it still gains 10 power points.

Additionally, even if Britain were attacked so ruthlessly that its tax power dropped all the way to 6 (from 15+), it could still take a tax action, gain the associated 1 power point and end the game.
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John Rogers
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Thanks.
 
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John Rogers wrote:
Since taxation is the only way a player can gain power points, is it even possible for Britain to continue to get power points and thus end the game?


No. The answer is no. players do not gain power points, where have you seen that? Power points are gained only by the nations. if Britain is on 24 power points if it taxes again it doesn't matter how many power points it will gain. It will reach 25 and end the game
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John Rogers
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Siromist wrote:
John Rogers wrote:
Since taxation is the only way a player can gain power points, is it even possible for Britain to continue to get power points and thus end the game?


No. The answer is no. players do not gain power points, where have you seen that? Power points are gained only by the nations. if Britain is on 24 power points if it taxes again it doesn't matter how many power points it will gain. It will reach 25 and end the game


Sorry, I meant to say nations not players in reference to power points. My issue is that if a NATION is on level 24 of the power points and it is already at level 15 of the tax chart how can it (the NATION) gain more power points? Can it go beyond the 15+?

Since you answered the last question here is another. What happens when a NATION is at level 8 on the tax chart and its taxation action gives it 16 (that is higher than 15 on that tax chart)? Does the player acting on behalf of the nation only receive a bonus up to 15 that is in this case a bonus payment of 7? Or, does the acting player receive a bonus equal to 8 since 8+8=16?

Thanks for your help. :)
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Romain Jacques
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The maximun power point you can get in one turn is 10. You will get 10 if you have 15 or more tax points (2 for factory and 1 for tax chip). So 15 or 19 tax points are the same thing.

EDIT: For your last question if a country was at 8 on the tax chart and goes up to 15+ the player will get 7 as a bonus because it went from 8 to 15. Even if in reality it could go up to 16.

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John Rogers
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Romain wrote:
The maximun power point you can get in one turn is 10. You will get 10 if you have 15 or more tax points (2 for factory and 1 for tax chip). So 15 or 19 tax points are the same thing.

EDIT: For your last question if a country was at 8 on the tax chart and goes up to 15+ the player will get 7 as a bonus because it went from 8 to 15. Even if in reality it could go up to 16.



Thanks. I just finished a second game, a 2-player session with my wife, and when we came to these issues we dealt with them as you just suggested. I can't wait to try this out with my game group on Saturday; they range from Avalon Hill war gamers to Rio Grande resource lovers to Splotter Spellen economic lovers. Should be interesting.
 
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Nathan Rhodes
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John Rogers wrote:

Since you answered the last question here is another. What happens when a NATION is at level 8 on the tax chart and its taxation action gives it 16 (that is higher than 15 on that tax chart)? Does the player acting on behalf of the nation only receive a bonus up to 15 that is in this case a bonus payment of 7? Or, does the acting player receive a bonus equal to 8 since 8+8=16?

Thanks for your help. :)


The monetary tax bonus a player receives is tied to the stages on the tax chart, not the actual taxation amount. Thus, a tax increase of 8 to 16 would only result in a bonus of 7 since the nation gained 7 taxation stages (8 to 15+).

Similarly, if a nation's tax increases from 2 to 7, the player only receives a bonus of 2 since the nation jumped two levels (2-5 level to the 7 level).
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John Rogers
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biohazard930 wrote:
John Rogers wrote:

Since you answered the last question here is another. What happens when a NATION is at level 8 on the tax chart and its taxation action gives it 16 (that is higher than 15 on that tax chart)? Does the player acting on behalf of the nation only receive a bonus up to 15 that is in this case a bonus payment of 7? Or, does the acting player receive a bonus equal to 8 since 8+8=16?

Thanks for your help. :)


The monetary tax bonus a player receives is tied to the stages on the tax chart, not the actual taxation amount. Thus, a tax increase of 8 to 16 would only result in a bonus of 7 since the nation gained 7 taxation stages (8 to 15+).

Similarly, if a nation's tax increases from 2 to 7, the player only receives a bonus of 2 since the nation jumped two levels (2-5 level to the 7 level).


Thanks again Nathan. I want to get this down before introducing this to my game group on Saturday.
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Romain wrote:
The maximun power point you can get in one turn is 10. You will get 10 if you have 15 or more tax points (2 for factory and 1 for tax chip). So 15 or 19 tax points are the same thing.

EDIT: For your last question if a country was at 8 on the tax chart and goes up to 15+ the player will get 7 as a bonus because it went from 8 to 15. Even if in reality it could go up to 16.



No! and again no! I don't think that this is mentioned in the rulebook.

there are 10 tax chips and and 5 factories for each countery, so if a nation is able to have them all laid down and taxes this is a total of 5x2=10+10=20 . the 15+ chart means that the tax can go above 15 but it will always give a +10 to the power points track. so in your example if the tax is 8 and goes to 16, simply move the marker to 15+, add 10 power points to the track but the success bonus is 8, the player gets paid 8 million from the bank
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Romain Jacques
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Siromist wrote:

No! and again no! I don't think that this is mentioned in the rulebook.

there are 10 tax chips and and 5 factories for each countery, so if a nation is able to have them all laid down and taxes this is a total of 5x2=10+10=20 . the 15+ chart means that the tax can go above 15 but it will always give a +10 to the power points track. so in your example if the tax is 8 and goes to 16, simply move the marker to 15+, add 10 power points to the track but the success bonus is 8, the player gets paid 8 million from the bank


From the rulebook:
Quote:
For any increase on the tax chart, compared to the previous level, the government (player) is paid a success bonus from the bank. The bonus is 1 mil. for each additional space.


Since there is no space above 15+ you cannot get bonus. Samething if your taxation increase to a number below 5. There is no space on the chart between 2-5 so no bonus.
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friend, in this way there is no meaning to make more than 15 tax revenue. I think when rules say "space" it is said for the reader so as to understand it. the "15+" on the chart considers that there are more spaces on the chart
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Nathan Rhodes
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Siromist wrote:
friend, in this way there is no meaning to make more than 15 tax revenue. I think when rules say "space" it is said for the reader so as to understand it. the "15+" on the chart considers that there are more spaces on the chart


I disagree. A nation might want to attain more than 15 taxation as a protective move (it is likely to get attacked very quickly) or as a move to deny tax chips to other nations.

Additionally, I don't see the problem with identifying with the literal meaning of "space" and "level" as used in the rules. Furthermore, if a nation were to tax at a level of 3, how would one keep track of it? The tax level is "2-5" with no indication as to what the actual tax was. There's no way to track tax above 15 either. Thus, a bonus based on true tax differential is not feasible. This further supports the claim that bonus is by level and not by real tax count.
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raising the tax between 2-5 the game considers that is not really enough for the "raiser" to get a success bonus. But the tax chart goew up in an arithmetical progression which is enough for someone to understand that there is no ending beyond 15. the "+" symbol idicates that!
that's what I believe. Peace!
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Romain Jacques
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Siromist wrote:
friend, in this way there is no meaning to make more than 15 tax revenue. I think when rules say "space" it is said for the reader so as to understand it. the "15+" on the chart considers that there are more spaces on the chart


Let's assume that you are right for a moment and the following situation happens:
You get 16, so you put your marker at 15+. After few turns and getting around the rondel you go up to 18. Do you have a bonus of 2 (the difference between 18 and 16) or 3 because you are at 15 and now you got 18? The game has no memory. When the marker is at 15+ you do not know if it was a real 15 or 20.

Moreover, you can note that for each increase of on the tax chart there is an increase of power point, do you suggest that with your virtual chart that goes above 15, we increase also the power point? So we can get 15 power point by having 20 on tax?

I think at the contrary that the chart was limited on purpose at 15 for tax and 10 for power point.
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John Rogers
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Romain wrote:
Siromist wrote:
friend, in this way there is no meaning to make more than 15 tax revenue. I think when rules say "space" it is said for the reader so as to understand it. the "15+" on the chart considers that there are more spaces on the chart


Let's assume that you are right for a moment and the following situation happens:
You get 16, so you put your marker at 15+. After few turns and getting around the rondel you go up to 18. Do you have a bonus of 2 (the difference between 18 and 16) or 3 because you are at 15 and now you got 18? The game has no memory. When the marker is at 15+ you do not know if it was a real 15 or 20.

Moreover, you can note that for each increase of on the tax chart there is an increase of power point, do you suggest that with your virtual chart that goes above 15, we increase also the power point? So we can get 15 power point by having 20 on tax?

I think at the contrary that the chart was limited on purpose at 15 for tax and 10 for power point.


This interpretation makes sense; however, I do have a further question in regards to the taxation bonus circa page 10 of the rulebook that states:

If the taxes are constant or decreasing, no bonus is paid out.

So in the scenario you described earlier, there is no memory once level 15+ is reached. That means, for the rest of the game no bonuses can be paid out on behalf of that nation because we cannot keep track of any gains beyond the 15+ point. Is that correct? Power points are added regardless of a nation moving up, down, or staying constant on the tax chart right?

One more question, since everyone has been so helpful. If a nation in on say level 13 of the tax chart and on the next turn they get 10 do they go down on the tax chart to the level they scored, in this case 10? Or do they remain at level 13?

Thanks again to everyone for their help.
 
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Romain Jacques
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John Rogers wrote:
So in the scenario you described earlier, there is no memory once level 15+ is reached. That means, for the rest of the game no bonuses can be paid out on behalf of that nation because we cannot keep track of any gains beyond the 15+ point. Is that correct? Power points are added regardless of a nation moving up, down, or staying constant on the tax chart right?

One more question, since everyone has been so helpful. If a nation in on say level 13 of the tax chart and on the next turn they get 10 do they go down on the tax chart to the level they scored, in this case 10? Or do they remain at level 13?

Thanks again to everyone for their help.


1. Yes, you get bonus if you go up the chart.
2. Correct, power point are always given. Only bonus are depending of going up the chart.
3. You adjust the marker to the level they scored. So to get back to your first question. A country at 15+ can eventualy give a bonus later in the game if it goes down to a lower level and goes up again.
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ok romain maybe you got a point. But the way the tax chart is printed, left column the tax revenue and right column the power point bonus, this shows when the tax revenue is on, that amount is the power points.

the "15+ +10" states that whenever the tax revenue is 15 or beyond the power point bonus is always +10. but it doesn't mean that it doesn't award success bonus to the raiser. Memory is a problem ok just put the marker off the game board robot . although it's hard to encounter a situation you said before
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Romain wrote:
John Rogers wrote:
So in the scenario you described earlier, there is no memory once level 15+ is reached. That means, for the rest of the game no bonuses can be paid out on behalf of that nation because we cannot keep track of any gains beyond the 15+ point. Is that correct? Power points are added regardless of a nation moving up, down, or staying constant on the tax chart right?

One more question, since everyone has been so helpful. If a nation in on say level 13 of the tax chart and on the next turn they get 10 do they go down on the tax chart to the level they scored, in this case 10? Or do they remain at level 13?

Thanks again to everyone for their help.


1. Yes, you get bonus if you go up the chart.
2. Correct, power point are always given. Only bonus are depending of going up the chart.
3. You adjust the marker to the level they scored. So to get back to your first question. A country at 15+ can eventualy give a bonus later in the game if it goes down to a lower level and goes up again.


Thanks. I think that clears up all my questions...for now devil.
 
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Siromist wrote:
raising the tax between 2-5 the game considers that is not really enough for the "raiser" to get a success bonus. But the tax chart goew up in an arithmetical progression which is enough for someone to understand that there is no ending beyond 15. the "+" symbol idicates that!
that's what I believe. Peace!


From the rules (emphasis mine):
Imperial Rules wrote:
If the taxes are 5 mil. or less, the game piece is put on the lowest space of the tax chart ("2-5"); if the tax is 50 15 mil. or more, the game piece is put on the highest space on the tax chart ("15+").

For any increase on the tax chart, compared to the previous level, the government (player) is paid a success bonus from the bank. The bonus is 1 mil. for each additional space.


A "space" is clearly defined as the printed levels on the board, since "2-5" is declared a "space." Thus, "15+" is the top "space," which cannot be exceeded.
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ok just got an answer from Mac Gerdts. Romain you are right! you only get the bonus for moving up on the tax chart. cool
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Siromist wrote:
ok just got an answer from Mac Gerdts. Romain you are right! you only get the bonus for moving up on the tax chart. cool

Thanks for giving us the information. Some would have keep it for themself.
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and here is the proof

From: MacGerdts
To: Siromist
Date: 2012-07-06 04:09:14
Subject: Re: Imperial

Hi Babis,
good question, the answer is: You get only the bonus which is recorded on the chart. In your example, this would be only 6 mil...
Greetings from Hamburg
Mac


Siromist wrote:
hello again Mr Gerdts!

after of many plays of Imperial I got anxious on something never faced before.

rulebook on page 10 states:

" for any increase on the tax chart,compared to previous level, the player is paid a success bonus from the bank. the bunus is one mil for each additional space."

does this mean for example if a nation is on 9 tax revenue and next round it taxes gets a 16, the player will be get a bonus of 7 mil or just 6 mil because the tax chart goes only up to 15????: surprise:
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John Rogers wrote:
If the taxes are constant or decreasing, no bonus is paid out.

So in the scenario you described earlier, there is no memory once level 15+ is reached. That means, for the rest of the game no bonuses can be paid out on behalf of that nation because we cannot keep track of any gains beyond the 15+ point. Is that correct? Power points are added regardless of a nation moving up, down, or staying constant on the tax chart right?


Not necessarily for the rest of the game. Example: UK taxes at 15, then a few turns later taxes at 10. No bonus is given out and the marker moves down to 10. Then a few more turns after that UK taxes at 15 again, the marker moves back up to 15 and a $5 million bonus is paid out for moving back up 5 spaces.

This is how I understood the rules - that the tax markers are fluid and move in both directions, not just "high water marks" that only move up throughout the game. But if I've been playing it wrong all this time, someone please let me know.
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