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Subject: Bull whip question rss

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Subramanian Krishnamurthy
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If I exhaust the bull whip to roll 1 extra die after a combat check, does the bullwhip cease to give combat bonus of +1 as well, or only the rolling extra die is exhausted?
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Eric Alexopoulos
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subrak13 wrote:
If I exhaust the bull whip to roll 1 extra die after a combat check, does the bullwhip cease to give combat bonus of +1 as well, or only the rolling extra die is exhausted?


Correct, when the whip is exhausted, then you do not get the +1 combat bonus.
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brian
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Stargazer1x wrote:
subrak13 wrote:
If I exhaust the bull whip to roll 1 extra die after a combat check, does the bullwhip cease to give combat bonus of +1 as well, or only the rolling extra die is exhausted?


Correct, when the whip is exhausted, then you do not get the +1 combat bonus.

Disagree. The effect stays. The exhaustion is so that you only get the re-roll once. You even get the secondary effect if it isn't even equipped.
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Eric Alexopoulos
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
Stargazer1x wrote:
subrak13 wrote:
If I exhaust the bull whip to roll 1 extra die after a combat check, does the bullwhip cease to give combat bonus of +1 as well, or only the rolling extra die is exhausted?


Correct, when the whip is exhausted, then you do not get the +1 combat bonus.

Disagree. The effect stays. The exhaustion is so that you only get the re-roll once. You even get the +1 if it isn't even equipped.


Page 6 under 'Refresh Exhausted Cards' says that exhausted cards are turned face down. This seems to indicate that the effect does not stay.

ColtsFan76 wrote:
You even get the +1 if it isn't even equipped.
Page 16 under 'Weapon and Spell limits' says 'A spell or weapon that gives you a bonus only continues to give you the bonus while you devote the required number of hands to it.' Bullwhip has one hand. It must be equipped for you to get the +1 to combat checks.

EDIT: Correction to post. Coltsfan76 mentioned below there is a FAQ on Bullwhip. Please check it out for clarification on the use of Bullwhip.
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Subramanian Krishnamurthy
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Thanks Brian! So I can roll a die, and continue to get the bonus +1 for next fight? But then it doesn't seem consistent-exhausting the card to lose all its powers seems more logical and simpler.

By the way, can you please respond to my other post today-there was some confusion regarding trading.
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brian
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Stargazer1x wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
Stargazer1x wrote:
subrak13 wrote:
If I exhaust the bull whip to roll 1 extra die after a combat check, does the bullwhip cease to give combat bonus of +1 as well, or only the rolling extra die is exhausted?


Correct, when the whip is exhausted, then you do not get the +1 combat bonus.

Disagree. The effect stays. The exhaustion is so that you only get the re-roll once. You even get the +1 if it isn't even equipped.


Page 6 under 'Refresh Exhausted Cards' says that exhausted cards are turned face down. This seems to indicate that the effect does not stay.

ColtsFan76 wrote:
You even get the +1 if it isn't even equipped.
Page 16 under 'Weapon and Spell limits' says 'A spell or weapon that gives you a bonus only continues to give you the bonus while you devoute the required number of hands to it.' Bullwhip has one hand. It must be equipped for you to get the +1 to combat checks.

Check the FAQ. This was established years ago. Bullwhip and Cross continue to give their benefit even when not equipped.
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David Bell
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ColtsFan76 wrote:

Check the FAQ. This was established years ago. Bullwhip and Cross continue to give their benefit even when not equipped.


In the case of the bullwhip, though, that just means that you can use the reroll ability even if you didn't dedicate a hand to the whip. The +1 still requires you to devote a hand.
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brian
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Chipacabra wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:

Check the FAQ. This was established years ago. Bullwhip and Cross continue to give their benefit even when not equipped.


In the case of the bullwhip, though, that just means that you can use the reroll ability even if you didn't dedicate a hand to the whip. The +1 still requires you to devote a hand.

Yeah, you're right. But the +1 one though is not dependent on the exhaustion of the card. If he already had it equipped with the +1 and then uses it for the reroll, the +1 is still in effect. He has it until the end of combat.
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Subramanian Krishnamurthy
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Personally, what David has to say makes more sense to me. I get the extra die bonus regardless of whether I equip Bullship or what, but the converse is not true-if I already used the extra die roll, then the card is exhausted and I cannot get +1 bonus for this combat or future ones. But you are the play tester Brian, so I will take your word
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brian
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subrak13 wrote:
Personally, what David has to say makes more sense to me. I get the extra die bonus regardless of whether I equip Bullship or what, but the converse is not true-if I already used the extra die roll, then the card is exhausted and I cannot get +1 bonus for this combat or future ones. But you are the play tester Brian, so I will take your word

I agree with that as well. But what I am saying, which I thought was your original question, was if you equipped Bullwhip and then used the reroll, would you lose the +1. I am saying you get to keep it for the rest of the current combat. Perhaps even with the re-roll you still failed to win and need to enter into another round of combat, you would still have the +1 even though it is now exhausted.

Yes, if you enter into a new combat and it is now exhausted, then you cannot re-equip it until it refreshes.

And slight correction. I was not a playtester on the base game. But I was working on the massive FAQ that never seems to be released. The only playtesting I did with Arkham was on Miskatonic.
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Subramanian Krishnamurthy
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But why should it work for another round of combat against the same monster? In that case, is it also true that Fetch Stick and Flame thrower give me +7 bonus for multiple rounds against a monster? That seems far too much and easy- we are playing it like they give bonus only for one round of combat. If you fail, then bad luck-have to use some other card.

And one of my questions in my other post specifically asks this and The Professor (Joe) seemed to agree and no one else objected either.
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Tibs
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Interesting. This came up tonight actually.

We decided that the Bullwhip will always give the +1 to combat checks, even for multiple combats; and that the "exhaust" is only for using the die-roll ability. It is distinct from combat spells because the spell must be successfully cast to offer a bonus: casting may only be done when it's not exhausted.

Interesting note about the "face down" fact too. FFG seems to have abandoned this "face down" rule in later expansions, as there are exhaustible items that are identical on both sides.
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Subramanian Krishnamurthy
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Well, Fetch stick and Flame thrower are not spells. How do you play them- carry over for multiple rounds against same monster? If that's how bullwhip should be used, then so should be the case for those 2-then they are way to powerful.
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Bern Harkins
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Consider the case of the Ancient Spear :

Type: Physical weapon
Bonus: +4 to Combat checks
Hands: 2
Any: Exhaust to change Ancient Spear to a Magical weapon until the end of this combat.
Price: $6

We have always played that the +4 physical attack was available whether the item was exhausted or not; the only effect of exhausting a card is to block using any exhaust powers until it is refreshed.

I'm totally guessing here, but I always presumed that the "upside down exhaust" rule was an attempt to ward off any difficulty from WotC's patent on tapping cards; we just turn them sideways. Sorry, Wizards.
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Bern Harkins
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subrak13 wrote:
Well, Fetch stick and Flame thrower are not spells. How do you play them- carry over for multiple rounds against same monster? If that's how bullwhip should be used, then so should be the case for those 2-then they are way to powerful.


Fetch Stick and Flamethrower use different language than other weapons; instead of "+X combat check", they are "Exhaust before making a Combat check to gain +7 to that check". So while for instance Petrifying Solution would work for an entire combat, Fetch Stick and Flamethrower are one check only.
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brian
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Radulla wrote:
CI'm totally guessing here, but I always presumed that the "upside down exhaust" rule was an attempt to ward off any difficulty from WotC's patent on tapping cards; we just turn them sideways. Sorry, Wizards.

That was my thought as well.

Exhausting is only for the effect that has the "exhaust clause" in it. If you can't remember what it does, don't flip it over!
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Gert Meyer
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I am totally with Brian on this one.

The Bullwhip has two unrelated abilities.

1. The +1 combat bonus which requires you to equip it and consequently uses up one of your hands, but works regardless of exhaustion state.

2. A once-per-turn reroll ability that can be used whether the Bullwhip is equipped or not, but requires the weapon to be exhausted (which is what makes it once-per-turn).

Exhaustion is just a mechanism for ensuring a given power can only be used once per turn, it is not a global "off switch" for the item. This is rarely an issue since most items that have an exhaust power (such as spells) do not provide a "passive" bonus at the same time.
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Tibs
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Radulla wrote:
So while for instance Petrifying Solution would work for an entire combat, Fetch Stick and Flamethrower are one check only.

No no, Petrifying Solution must be discarded to make the combat check. It works only for a single check. Same with Holy Water, Dynamite, Molotov, and Powder of Ibn Ghazi.
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Zach S
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
Stargazer1x wrote:
subrak13 wrote:
If I exhaust the bull whip to roll 1 extra die after a combat check, does the bullwhip cease to give combat bonus of +1 as well, or only the rolling extra die is exhausted?


Correct, when the whip is exhausted, then you do not get the +1 combat bonus.

Disagree. The effect stays. The exhaustion is so that you only get the re-roll once. You even get the +1 if it isn't even equipped.


I think this is the post that's going to confuse people. (Specifically, the part I've bolded.) "Equipped" means you've got a hand assigned to it, right? And you do need to assign a hand to the bull whip to get the +1 bonus.

If the above is true, you might want to edit your post to avoid confusion. If it's not true, then just disregard everything I've said because apparently I'm TERRIBLE.
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Joe Pilkus
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Wow, if there was ever a reason to publish the FAQ, this is it...nearly a decade on and we're still debating the Bullwhip...

For some of these matters, I've simply consulted (or in some cases edited) AH Wiki, which has served, ostensibly as the FAQ.
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Subramanian Krishnamurthy
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Radulla wrote:
Consider the case of the Ancient Spear :

Type: Physical weapon
Bonus: +4 to Combat checks
Hands: 2
Any: Exhaust to change Ancient Spear to a Magical weapon until the end of this combat.
Price: $6

We have always played that the +4 physical attack was available whether the item was exhausted or not; the only effect of exhausting a card is to block using any exhaust powers until it is refreshed.



Now I am totally confused. According to ColtsFan (Yes, if you enter into a new combat and it is now exhausted, then you cannot re-equip it until it refreshes), bull whip continues to give the +1 bonus for the current combat but not later, correct?

You seem to suggest it carries to combats against multiple monsters-only the re-roll die part is exhausted?!
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David Bell
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The way I read the rules and faq, once you have assigned a hand to the whip, you get the +1 for the rest of the fight or until you switch that hand to something else. However if the whip is exhausted you can't assign a hand to it. That's the most straightforward way to handle it, I think.
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brian
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subrak13 wrote:
Radulla wrote:
Consider the case of the Ancient Spear :

Type: Physical weapon
Bonus: +4 to Combat checks
Hands: 2
Any: Exhaust to change Ancient Spear to a Magical weapon until the end of this combat.
Price: $6

We have always played that the +4 physical attack was available whether the item was exhausted or not; the only effect of exhausting a card is to block using any exhaust powers until it is refreshed.



Now I am totally confused. According to ColtsFan (Yes, if you enter into a new combat and it is now exhausted, then you cannot re-equip it until it refreshes), bull whip continues to give the +1 bonus for the current combat but not later, correct?

You seem to suggest it carries to combats against multiple monsters-only the re-roll die part is exhausted?!

You can't equip something that is exhausted. However, once it is is equipped, the effect remains through it being exhausted. Just like when you exhaust a spell for combat but the effect stays with you until the end of combat (unless otherwise noted).

The end of a combat "un-equips" all weapons and releases all spells.
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Brian Mc Cabe
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subrak13 wrote:
But why should it work for another round of combat against the same monster? In that case, is it also true that Fetch Stick and Flame thrower give me +7 bonus for multiple rounds against a monster? That seems far too much and easy- we are playing it like they give bonus only for one round of combat. If you fail, then bad luck-have to use some other card.

And one of my questions in my other post specifically asks this and The Professor (Joe) seemed to agree and no one else objected either.


I don't have the game right here, but I'm pretty sure Flame Thrower and Fetch Stick specifically say they are exhausted after one round of combat.

In the expansions, there are other double-use items that have two specific sentences. Staff of the Pharaoh: Plus to combat/exhaust to cast one spell as though both your hands were free.

This is a two-handed weapon, so it looks as though, you can get the +3, plus the bonus for whatever combat spell you're trying to cast. I guess you're waving the staff during your incantation, rather than your hands and when you cast the spell, you give the monster a good whack to boot.

Otherwise, there would be no reason to have the disclaimer about it taking no hands when casting a spell.

Brian
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brian
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apatheticexecutioner wrote:
I don't have the game right here, but I'm pretty sure Flame Thrower and Fetch Stick specifically say they are exhausted after one round of combat.

As has been mentioned already, Flamethrower/Fetch Stick are exhausted for a single specific combat check. Not a whole round, not a whole combat, just a single check:

Flamethrower wrote:
Any Phase: Exhaust before making a Combat check to gain +7 to that check.


Fetch Stick wrote:
Any Phase: Exhaust before making a Combat check to gain +7 to that check.


And since they are triggered by a Check, they may be used anytime a Combat check is specifically called out, not just during combat, per se.
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