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Subject: Initial Thoughts After Two Plays rss

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David Millette
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After two games (intro scenarios) I have found the trays to be rather awkward and cumbersome to use for the Commands and Colors side of things. Units seem to be continually getting bumped and knocked over, thus slowing down game play (some might be due to my own clumsiness). I lost a couple of more red/yellow banners (ends broke off) due to falling out and having to try to reinsert. I am considering playing the game without the trays. I am really hoping that without them the game will setup and move along more quickly. Unfortunately, I am still not sold on the miniatures in terms of actual gameplay.

As another user stated, I am now very much considering magnets on the bottom of the bases and some type of metal/magnetic movement trays. Maybe that would ease my frustration with the gameplay in terms of the actual models.

On a side note, I did enjoy the mechanics of the game quite a bit. Lots of fun command and dragon card interplay produced some very nice surprises. The inspired units and units ignoring sword hits by rank produced some interesting results too. I came close to running out of honor on a couple of occasions (especially early in the game), but never actually did. The dragon cards never seemed overpowering, nor be overused in the two games I played. Both were concerns of mine before playing.

On the other hand the leaders seemed to die too easily in the two games I played. I lost 3 out of 6 leaders in both of the games I played due to only needing to roll a sword hit on a one die leader check after each time the leader's unit suffered a loss. I'll have to play more to know for sure, but something didn't sit right with me to see two 5 victory point games lost with 2 leaders occupying the winners victory point tracker each time. I might consider house ruling that if it continues to be that easy in the future. Then again maybe I just rolled lucky.

Overall I enjoyed the mechanics of this game very much and I look forward to playing it some more... I will do a more thorough rating and review once I have a few more games under my belt.
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Simon George
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Leighton Buzzard
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mille1212 wrote:
After two games (intro scenarios) I have found the trays to be rather awkward and cumbersome to use for the Commands and Colors side of things. Units seem to be continually getting bumped and knocked over, thus slowing down game play (some might be due to my own clumsiness). I lost a couple of more red/yellow banners (ends broke off) due to falling out and having to try to reinsert. I am considering playing the game without the trays. I am really hoping that without them the game will setup and move along more quickly. Unfortunately, I am still not sold on the miniatures in terms of actual gameplay.


I played my first game last night. I too found the trays to be a hindrance to gameplay - fat fingers.

The minatures are beautiful but it's not easy to tell units apart. The weapons are so fragile I wonder how they will survive. I'm tempted to just use the older zvezda samurai I've bought to see if they handle better.

I hate to say it, but I find myself thinking this would be better with blocks and stickers.

On a positive note, I like the rules compared to other C&C games I've played (Ancients, Memoir).

I think it needs a better unit summary card, in the style of Ancients. I think I'll have a stab at creating one.
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William Gaskill
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But in the C&C Rulebook it states the Trays aren't to be used
for the C&C Gamedevil Plus the Cav.trays don't hold enough
figs for the C&C Game.

I had planned to use the Trays anyway as moving 4 individual
figs around I found some a bit much in M44, BL & BoW but your
experiences see to suggest the SB Trays aren't working
either.

Once I finish up assembly (probably by Fallwhistle )
I'll see how it goes as I like the look of the SB Trays
but I have some regular movement trays if it comes to that.

I've also been concened over the flags so I picked up a
few of the Troop Kits to give me enough figs for each side
so I can just glue them & be done with it.

OD
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Kevin Duke
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Quote:
On the other hand the leaders seemed to die too easily in the two games I played. I lost 3 out of 6 leaders in both of the games I played due to only needing to roll a sword hit on a one die leader check after each time the leader's unit suffered a loss


As soon as I read that in the rules--and then went back and read it again-- I was wondering if that was a typo.

Having leaders equally vulnerable with a three figure (remaing) unit as they are when left alone just feels "wrong."

Maybe it is to reflect some sort of extreme "lead from the from" style by these small unit commanders. I don't know. But I don't recall a time I wanted to ask, "did you MEAN this?" about a rule as much as this one.
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David Boeren
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Planning my initial game this Saturday, or a test game tonight if I have time...

I can definitely see that the figures (trayed or not) are delicate to move around, they're so lightweight and just barely held in place by the trays. M44 figures are tough, you can grab and move them without any special care. Do that with Samurai Battles and you'll be breaking off spears though

On the other hand, they do look a heck of a lot nicer than blocks, and if I decide to paint them it'll be another huge leap forward in looks.

Anyway, I'll post some updated thoughts once we play an actual game.
 
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Kent Reuber
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Jherek wrote:
The minatures are beautiful but it's not easy to tell units apart. The weapons are so fragile I wonder how they will survive. I'm tempted to just use the older zvezda samurai I've bought to see if they handle better.

I hate to say it, but I find myself thinking this would be better with blocks and stickers.


I feel the same way. I think you'll lose a lot of spears and bows with repeated play. I sent GMT a note asking if they had any C&CA block sets available. If not, I'll probably order some figures. I have some 10mm Samurai that I've never done anything with. Or I might go with Zvezda and RedBox plastics.
 
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Kent Reuber
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kduke wrote:
Maybe it is to reflect some sort of extreme "lead from the from" style by these small unit commanders. I don't know. But I don't recall a time I wanted to ask, "did you MEAN this?" about a rule as much as this one.


The "lead from the front" is my assumption as well.
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Mike Brown
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kentreuber wrote:
kduke wrote:
Maybe it is to reflect some sort of extreme "lead from the from" style by these small unit commanders. I don't know. But I don't recall a time I wanted to ask, "did you MEAN this?" about a rule as much as this one.


The "lead from the front" is my assumption as well.



You would lose honor leading from the rear. Maybe a house rule to pay honor to keep your leader from getting killed would work...
 
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ad1642
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kduke wrote:
Quote:
On the other hand the leaders seemed to die too easily in the two games I played. I lost 3 out of 6 leaders in both of the games I played due to only needing to roll a sword hit on a one die leader check after each time the leader's unit suffered a loss


As soon as I read that in the rules--and then went back and read it again-- I was wondering if that was a typo.

Having leaders equally vulnerable with a three figure (remaing) unit as they are when left alone just feels "wrong."

Maybe it is to reflect some sort of extreme "lead from the from" style by these small unit commanders. I don't know. But I don't recall a time I wanted to ask, "did you MEAN this?" about a rule as much as this one.


So unless it is a typo, it means ranged combat is different than close combat for leader casualty check.
 
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ad1642
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My solo test game yesterday was spent mostly inserting banners, and looking up unit stats all over the place.

It's in time like this that I appreciate all the efforts that goes into GMT/Days of Wonder games. All the streamlining and efforts that goes into producing a game.

So far, from purely a component and "ergonomic" point of view, this game is closer to a miniature table top experience than a boardgame.

The problem is I know the game behind all this is probably a great one, I'm just concerned that all this miniature assembling, setting-up will detract from enjoying it.

I see 2 directions I can go with this:
Retro-fit into a GMT style game, using blocks and stickers.
Super-size it to a 3'x4' hex mat (hotz mat??) to eliminate the "moving" board sections and add a bit of scale to the ensemble.
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David Millette
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A_Denis wrote:
My solo test game yesterday was spent mostly inserting banners, and looking up unit stats all over the place.

It's in time like this that I appreciate all the efforts that goes into GMT/Days of Wonder games. All the streamlining and efforts that goes into producing a game.

So far, from purely a component and "ergonomic" point of view, this game is closer to a miniature table top experience than a boardgame.

The problem is I know the game behind all this is probably a great one, I'm just concerned that all this miniature assembling, setting-up will detract from enjoying it.

I see 2 directions I can go with this:
Retro-fit into a GMT style game, using blocks and stickers.
Super-size it to a 3'x4' hex mat (hotz mat??) to eliminate the "moving" board sections and add a bit of scale to the ensemble.


I am not ready to give up on the models yet. They do look fantastic. I think I may have found a solution (going to cost me about $30 though). I found some 2"x1 1/2" steel movement trays for the infantry, some 2 3/8"x1 6/8 steel movement trays for the cavalry, some 1/2"x1/2" magnetic bases to glue onto the bottom of each infantry unit, and some 1/2"x1 1/2" magnetic bases to glue onto the bottom of each cavalry unit. The movement trays come with a slightly raised flange to help grip them and they should greatly improve movement on the mapboard.

They also could help with the setup and storage issues I've experienced. I am thinking I can leave the full units on the trays and store them that way. Then, when I'm ready to play I can simply take the tray out for each unit type and place it onto the mapboard in the appropriate position. Might have to switch out a few banners here and there and the terrain tiles will have to be placed of course, but the tediousness of setup should be greatly improved I would think.

I have asked for some samples. Hope they will arrive next week. I will let you know how they work out.
 
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Brian Sherry
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Regarding the leader casualties, I am certain it was a deliberate decision. When reading the history of these battles leader casualties were quite common and were often decisive. Also the scale of the battles so far is not very large. That is the 8 battles in the book are smaller sections of a larger battle. Perhaps those two factors justified the 1 in 6 chance of a close combat leader casualty in Samurai battles as opposed to other C&C titles.
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Barry Kendall
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Although I don't own the game . . . yet . . . coming eventuall, please forgive me, my beloved Mistress of the Exchequer . . . .

Having studied the game pretty thoroughly over the past week or so (and viewing numerous Samurai battle scenes, courtesy of Youtube), a solution to the perceived back-banner problem (namely, swapping out reds and yellows depending on the scenario) might be to color several sets of back banners to create specific units (black, white, stripes on yellow, spots on red, etc.) to identify specific "unit groups" (fours, for Infantry, apparently) which could then be used for either side, depending on scenario.

Simply provide the owning Player with an identifying token featuring the same colors (this could be a piece of white cardstock colored with a Sharpie) to keep track of such "clans" as being Friendly in a particular scenario.

Having been dazzled by the colors in several of those Samurai movies, I'm planning to paint my little guys, assuming they're made in good old Zvezda hard plastic (which Enamels like, being "non-bendy"), but as a fast fix generally, alternative back-banner IDs certainly sounds easier (and more durable) than frequently pulling-out-and-putting-back red or yellow banners for a scenario Order of Battle.

On another note, for those interested in magnetizing, nice round magnets are available in most craft stores in several diameters. These would provide both adhesive properties and "base weight" to the plastic figures. They are, if memory serves, about 3mm thick and dark-brownish in color.
 
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Read the rulebook, plan for all contingencies, and…read the rulebook again.
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kduke wrote:
Quote:
On the other hand the leaders seemed to die too easily in the two games I played. I lost 3 out of 6 leaders in both of the games I played due to only needing to roll a sword hit on a one die leader check after each time the leader's unit suffered a loss


As soon as I read that in the rules--and then went back and read it again-- I was wondering if that was a typo.

Having leaders equally vulnerable with a three figure (remaing) unit as they are when left alone just feels "wrong."

Maybe it is to reflect some sort of extreme "lead from the from" style by these small unit commanders. I don't know. But I don't recall a time I wanted to ask, "did you MEAN this?" about a rule as much as this one.


I have yet to play a game, but maybe Dragon cards mitigate this situation some? (I haven't examined all the cards.) And players are free to have their retreating leaders commit sepeku for added honor, so maybe the "lead from the front" rationale is a good one.
 
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Steve R Bullock
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I am in progress of playing a solo learning game.

I really like what I see so far, game rules wise. As to be expected, it is very similar to most of the other C&C games, but with enough changes to make it a bit fresh.

As stated earlier, I gave up trying to use the movement trays. Too awkward. Moving the units like Memoir 44 or Battle Cry works just fine.

I do not find the pieces too fragile. The spears are flexible enough to bend and bounce back. Of all the pieces I cut, glued, and bagged, I only broke one spear (I was too heavy handed), and fixed it with a bit of glue so that it is as strong or stronger than before.

My solution to the little yellow/red banners is simple, but a bit expensive. I will buy a second game and assemble and spray paint the next set a different color. The banners will end up either never being used, or attached and never removed.

So far, I am pleased with the game.

I doubt, however, I well ever play the second set of rules (Art Of Tactic). It's just not my taste at this time.

My biggest negative at this time are the individual game boards. They are of at best average quality, and mine are already warping a bit. Not terribly, but a bit. They should have been thicker.

I am strongly considering using one of my extra big Battlelore boards for a replacement.

On the plus size, I LOVE those plastic elevation tiles!


 
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