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Subject: plasma missiles...again! rss

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jay cutler
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which variant is better?
1. using only 1 missile per ship
2. computer can't change, missiles hit only with 6
 
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Mathue Faulkner
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bodybuilder wrote:
which variant is better?
1. using only 1 missile per ship
2. computer can't change, missiles hit only with 6

Both are really bad imo. They're super nerfs that are too strong, and nullify any reason to buy missiles. If you actually run the #s, you'll see why...

Check this thread (among others) for a few different ideas:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/823267/collection-of-simple-...

I personally don't think any nerf is needed, but the simplest that is in line with what you proposed is to limit missiles to only 2 per ship. Retains some strength while still preventing missile boats.
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jay cutler
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one per ship and 2 per dreadnought seems the best

anyone know, in which way the expansion will change missiles?
 
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Agent J
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It'll make everyone post ways to fix plasma missiles because they're underpowered.
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Daniel Hammond
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bodybuilder wrote:
one per ship and 2 per dreadnought seems the best

anyone know, in which way the expansion will change missiles?


It gives you a few more tools to deal with them, but since they aren't REALLY broken there are no "fixes".
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Agent J
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
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bodybuilder wrote:
one per ship and 2 per dreadnought seems the best

anyone know, in which way the expansion will change missiles?


We are still equating "devestating in combat" to "unbalancing the game" which is categorically wrong. There is no need to fix missiles in the grand scheme of the game, which is not won by the result of combat alone. The location of combat and the economy backing each player is much more important. What good are missiles if they can't get into your systems? What good are missiles if you cut off their retreat and have enough hull to survive the onslaught?
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jay cutler
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Jythier wrote:
bodybuilder wrote:
one per ship and 2 per dreadnought seems the best

anyone know, in which way the expansion will change missiles?


We are still equating "devestating in combat" to "unbalancing the game" which is categorically wrong. There is no need to fix missiles in the grand scheme of the game, which is not won by the result of combat alone. The location of combat and the economy backing each player is much more important. What good are missiles if they can't get into your systems? What good are missiles if you cut off their retreat and have enough hull to survive the onslaught?


enough hull to survive a dreadnought with 4 missiles? I don't think it's possible!!

it's true that you don't win the game only by winning fights, but it's also true that there is no fun if you know to lose every fight!

 
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Daniel Hammond
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bodybuilder wrote:
Jythier wrote:
bodybuilder wrote:
one per ship and 2 per dreadnought seems the best

anyone know, in which way the expansion will change missiles?


We are still equating "devestating in combat" to "unbalancing the game" which is categorically wrong. There is no need to fix missiles in the grand scheme of the game, which is not won by the result of combat alone. The location of combat and the economy backing each player is much more important. What good are missiles if they can't get into your systems? What good are missiles if you cut off their retreat and have enough hull to survive the onslaught?


enough hull to survive a dreadnought with 4 missiles? I don't think it's possible!!

it's true that you don't win the game only by winning fights, but it's also true that there is no fun if you know to lose every fight!



On the ONLY entrance to your systems build 4 starbases with 4 double hulls. It will take 5 missile hits to kill each and Dreads can realistically only launch 8 x 2 (because you can have 2) = 16 missiles . If he kills 3 which is unlikely it will cost you 9 materials to rebuild your defenses. If you can add a couple of ships to cut off his retreat or you can roll a 6 after he declares his retreat it will cost him as much or more than it cost you.
 
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Peter O
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bodybuilder wrote:
Jythier wrote:
bodybuilder wrote:
one per ship and 2 per dreadnought seems the best

anyone know, in which way the expansion will change missiles?


We are still equating "devestating in combat" to "unbalancing the game" which is categorically wrong. There is no need to fix missiles in the grand scheme of the game, which is not won by the result of combat alone. The location of combat and the economy backing each player is much more important. What good are missiles if they can't get into your systems? What good are missiles if you cut off their retreat and have enough hull to survive the onslaught?


enough hull to survive a dreadnought with 4 missiles? I don't think it's possible!!

it's true that you don't win the game only by winning fights, but it's also true that there is no fun if you know to lose every fight!



Between the title and these last comments I'm thinking troll attempting to be funny...

God I hope so
 
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Agent J
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You PIN a dreadnought with 4 missiles and go past it. You fight a cruiser with 2/3 missiles with 3 ints with advanced hull. It only cost you one upgrade action while it cost them at least 2 because they needed to throw a computer on there, too. Preferably you move into their sector, so that the battle is over their stuff. Personally I find a tactical/maneuvering battle to be much more fascinating than rolling dice to win it.
 
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Agent J
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
badge
He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
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dlhammond wrote:
bodybuilder wrote:
Jythier wrote:
bodybuilder wrote:
one per ship and 2 per dreadnought seems the best

anyone know, in which way the expansion will change missiles?


We are still equating "devestating in combat" to "unbalancing the game" which is categorically wrong. There is no need to fix missiles in the grand scheme of the game, which is not won by the result of combat alone. The location of combat and the economy backing each player is much more important. What good are missiles if they can't get into your systems? What good are missiles if you cut off their retreat and have enough hull to survive the onslaught?


enough hull to survive a dreadnought with 4 missiles? I don't think it's possible!!

it's true that you don't win the game only by winning fights, but it's also true that there is no fun if you know to lose every fight!



On the ONLY entrance to your systems build 4 starbases with 4 double hulls. It will take 5 missile hits to kill each and Dreads can realistically only launch 8 x 2 (because you can have 2) = 16 missiles . If he kills 3 which is unlikely it will cost you 9 materials to rebuild your defenses. If you can add a couple of ships to cut off his retreat or you can roll a 6 after he declares his retreat it will cost him as much or more than it cost you.


Why did you let the Dreadnaught attack you again?
 
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jay cutler
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I love this game, just I think missiles are too strong, and I see I'm not the only one to think so!
 
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Daniel Hammond
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Because it gets me combat draws and wastes more actions from the Dreadnought player than it does me, and if I am playing with other players that are smart once he pins his own dreads on my starbases he should be getting attacked from multiple sides.
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Daniel Hammond
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bodybuilder wrote:
I love this game, just I think missiles are too strong, and I see I'm not the only one to think so!


If missiles win all your games then you aren't playing well. I have played 44 games and have never seen missiles win a game. I have seen good players win with missiles but more often I have seen missiles lose games (they take a lot of actions to get and upgrade) and I don't find them that difficult to defend against through actions, maneuver and defenses.
 
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jay cutler
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dlhammond wrote:
bodybuilder wrote:
I love this game, just I think missiles are too strong, and I see I'm not the only one to think so!


If missiles win all your games then you aren't playing well. I have played 44 games and have never seen missiles win a game. I have seen good players win with missiles but more often I have seen missiles lose games (they take a lot of actions to get and upgrade) and I don't find them that difficult to defend against through actions, maneuver and defenses.


I did not say who wins missiles, just in combat they win too often! then why not fix them?
 
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Agent J
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bodybuilder wrote:
dlhammond wrote:
bodybuilder wrote:
I love this game, just I think missiles are too strong, and I see I'm not the only one to think so!


If missiles win all your games then you aren't playing well. I have played 44 games and have never seen missiles win a game. I have seen good players win with missiles but more often I have seen missiles lose games (they take a lot of actions to get and upgrade) and I don't find them that difficult to defend against through actions, maneuver and defenses.


I did not say who wins missiles, just in combat they win too often! then why not fix them?


Because we're playing Eclipse, not Tactical Battle In Space Simulator.
 
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Agent J
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
badge
He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
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Winning battles is not equal to winning the game, so having a tech that helps you to win battles does not mean it's broken. The game involves a lot more than a single battle, even, so the outcome of a single battle is not nearly so important as you seem to be trying to make it. That's why I don't fix it.

Also, this has been posted about since the game came out and there are plenty of fixes already, like requiring 1 power each missile, because people still can't seem to get past the battle results not mattering.
 
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jay cutler
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Jythier wrote:
Winning battles is not equal to winning the game, so having a tech that helps you to win battles does not mean it's broken. The game involves a lot more than a single battle, even, so the outcome of a single battle is not nearly so important as you seem to be trying to make it. That's why I don't fix it.

Also, this has been posted about since the game came out and there are plenty of fixes already, like requiring 1 power each missile, because people still can't seem to get past the battle results not mattering.


perhaps you've convinced me, and I think i will play with normal rules.

do you know if the expansion will changes any rule?
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Loren Cadelinia
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bodybuilder wrote:
Jythier wrote:
Winning battles is not equal to winning the game, so having a tech that helps you to win battles does not mean it's broken. The game involves a lot more than a single battle, even, so the outcome of a single battle is not nearly so important as you seem to be trying to make it. That's why I don't fix it.

Also, this has been posted about since the game came out and there are plenty of fixes already, like requiring 1 power each missile, because people still can't seem to get past the battle results not mattering.


perhaps you've convinced me, and I think i will play with normal rules.

do you know if the expansion will changes any rule?


The expansion, assuming not that much has been changed in the beta, will offer some ways to counter missile strategy, but it should maintain missile strength.
 
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jay cutler
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dyepbr wrote:
bodybuilder wrote:
Jythier wrote:
Winning battles is not equal to winning the game, so having a tech that helps you to win battles does not mean it's broken. The game involves a lot more than a single battle, even, so the outcome of a single battle is not nearly so important as you seem to be trying to make it. That's why I don't fix it.

Also, this has been posted about since the game came out and there are plenty of fixes already, like requiring 1 power each missile, because people still can't seem to get past the battle results not mattering.


perhaps you've convinced me, and I think i will play with normal rules.

do you know if the expansion will changes any rule?


The expansion, assuming not that much has been changed in the beta, will offer some ways to counter missile strategy, but it should maintain missile strength.


but where is the rule that computers can change missiles? I don't saw it in regulation
 
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Daniel Hammond
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Computers work the same way with missiles as they do with any other weapons adding a +X to hit for x factors of computers on the ship (with a 1 always missing). There is no change in the rule. The difference on missiles is they always fire before non-missiles, they only fire once per skirmish (battle could be multiple skirmishes in a single hex) and they can't shoot at population cubes.
 
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Mathue Faulkner
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bodybuilder wrote:
one per ship and 2 per dreadnought seems the best

anyone know, in which way the expansion will change missiles?

If you want to see my argument on why "one per ship" is a super nerf and way too strong, then read all of my comments from about 1/2 way down this page (starting with the post dated 7/3/2012, 4:06pm):
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/746189/plasma-missile-fixes/...
 
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James
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When it comes to PMs there are 3 rules which we like to use. (I don't think PMs are broken, they just make battles less enjoyable in my opinion).

note these can each stand a lone or be combined with each other.

1) Cold War PMs....once one person buys PMs every one has access to them. the buyer gets the chit and the upgrades go to the side of the board where were all the free upgrades are. What happens is a starring contest on who will spend the science...makes for intersting politics in 4 plus games. we use 66% of time.

2) long distance love PMs.... all missiles are fired at once from both sides. Attacker fires and picks what will be hit. the defender then fires all PMs, even from ships that were destroyed by attacker moments earlier. (all missiles presumed to have left their ships on both sides). we use 95% of time, exception is with new people, we teach the game properly.

3) Down to business PMs... We take our business cards turn them over and make two large squares. these represent the 2 slots you can upgrade a PM with. if you dont upgrade it hits at a six. Computers add to dice roll. A Drive adds speed (not inative) if you have faster missiles you may use it to target other incoming missiles. Shields minus from a dice roll and improved hull require to hits to destroy missile. all upgrade rules like combining computers or what ever are allowed and it requires an upgrade action which can be split with a ship or star base (so 1 square on the missile is upgrades and one square on your ship or base is upgraded). we use 50% of time. mostly computers and the odd drive are used.

the above make it more tacticle which for a bunch of old wargamers is more enjoyable. I can tell you battles are when you can run and get your drink or munchies but with the above every one sticks around to see how battles unfold,yes even mothe nature's call are put on hold till after the battle. plus it only adds maybe 2 extra minutes to a large battle once you gPt use to it.

thanks
 
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Jim Richardson

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bodybuilder wrote:
which variant is better?
1. using only 1 missile per ship
2. computer can't change, missiles hit only with 6


Both of those are too punitive, and would make them not worth buying. Of all the missile tweaks I've heard, I only like these 2 off the top of my head:

1.) Plasma Missiles require 1 or 2 power (up to you)
2.) Plasma Missiles always miss on a roll of 1 OR 2
 
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Dan Loos
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Missiles are not broken. Do the math, you'll see.

However, it REALLY SUCKS to play against because the "shoot first" nature of the missiles make it so that I don't really get to roll my dice and play my ships.

Basically, Missile Player vs equal ships the missile player will run in, shoot missiles, and retreat if rolls don't all come up 6s. The other player gets 1, maybe 2, rounds - it FEELS yucky to be on the receiving end there, even though you'll win if all things are equal (materials and research, and appropriate counter techs)

That said, missiles are very strong if you have a ship advantage and/or research/upgrade turn advantage.
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