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Subject: Quick questions about invasion movement rss

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Daniel Guerra
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This might be a dumb question, but the situation came out in our last game and couldn't find anything about it on the rulebook.

Situation: Invader is in Territory B, which is adjacent to Territories A & C . US territory A has units on them, while US territory C is empty

ie.

A-----------------B------------------C
(US Army) (Invader) (Empty US)

The invader Declares on both territories but send all of his army on B to fight against Territory A.

Combat Ends with the US army on A destroyed and The invader army on B left with 4 units alive.

Question #1. Can the invader move on his invasion action some units from B to declared territory C, eventhough they all participated in the attack to A?, or does the invader need to leave some units out of the combat so they can move to C?

Question #2. Does the invader have to invade A? or can he choose not to move into the territory after destroying the ocupying forces? (leaving the territory under US control).

 
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Chad Lawrence
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My understanding is that the combat and invasion phases are completely separate. So regardless of what the results are of the combat phase, you can move anyone to any friendly or battle territory during the invasion phase. Except for the bomber, which can end in a battle territory by itself.
 
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Dangerous Partners
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Waramir wrote:
This might be a dumb question, but the situation came out in our last game and couldn't find anything about it on the rulebook.

Situation: Invader is in Territory B, which is adjacent to Territories A & C . US territory A has units on them, while US territory C is empty

ie.

A-----------------B------------------C
(US Army) (Invader) (Empty US)

The invader Declares on both territories but send all of his army on B to fight against Territory A.

Combat Ends with the US army on A destroyed and The invader army on B left with 4 units alive.

Question #1. Can the invader move on his invasion action some units from B to declared territory C, eventhough they all participated in the attack to A?, or does the invader need to leave some units out of the combat so they can move to C?

Question #2. Does the invader have to invade A? or can he choose not to move into the territory after destroying the ocupying forces? (leaving the territory under US control).


As Chad mentioned the Invasion (or 2nd movement for old timers like me) movement phase is totally independent to Combat, so in this example you could move into none, one or both territories.

BUT, according to the rules, what you couldn't do is attack A with all units from B as when you Declared both A and C you then had to assign which units were attacking which territory - so your force attacking A had to be short at least one unit (for attacking C).... unless another territory adjacent to C had a unit that could attack.

In your scenario you would probably not Declare C as since there were no units you were trying to destroy and you were not going to move into it (i.e. take control of it) then there was no point in Declaring it.
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Ryan Hanson
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I have exactly the same question!

BeerAndBoard wrote:
BUT, according to the rules, what you couldn't do is
attack A with all units from B as when you Declared both A and C you then had to assign which units were attacking which territory - so your force attacking A had to be short at least one unit (for attacking C).... unless another territory adjacent to C had a unit that could attack.


Is this true? The rules aren't as clear as I'd like them to be. The rules cover this situation on page 12 where it's stated that each unit must choose which territory it will attack, but this doesn't seem to be tied to invasion movement. The rules seem to leave open the possibility that a unit could attack one territory and then invasion move into a different territory.

The rules section on invasion movement makes no reference whatsoever to units being restricted to moving into certain territories, it reads as if there is complete freedom.

I would love some clarity on this from the FA veterans.
 
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Marcel van der pol
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Quote:
Is this true? The rules aren't as clear as I'd like them to be. The rules cover this situation on page 12 where it's stated that each unit must choose which territory it will attack, but this doesn't seem to be tied to invasion movement. The rules seem to leave open the possibility that a unit could attack one territory and then invasion move into a different territory.


Nothing in the Invasion Movement phase forces you to enter territories that you have just attacked. You could even attack a city territory with some units, winning the battle there during Combat and then NOT invade during the Invasion movement (for example because you lost a lot more units than you anticipated and the US player has a stong counter-attack against the city). In these cases, the market of the invader is removed and control does NOT change.

Quote:
The rules section on invasion movement makes no reference whatsoever to units being restricted to moving into certain territories, it reads as if there is complete freedom.


That is correct. The only FORCED movement during the Invasion Phase is that Bombers MUST be removed from an enemy territory if you do NOT send any other units to capture the territory.
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Ryan Hanson
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Wow, thanks a lot Marcel.

So the two restrictions that do apply are these:

1. At the end of Maneuver movement you must have at least 1 distinct unit within invasion movement range of each declared territory, i.e. you can't have only 1 unit adjacent to 2 or more declared territories. I assume this is primarily to prevent players from spamming declare markers to prevent enemy retreats.

2. During the combat phase each unit can only attack one territory.

Does this sound right?
 
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Dangerous Partners
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Hi guys, you seem to have misread what I posted.

I agreed that there is no restriction (other than the units' movement value and the stacking limit) of what units (if any at all) can move into what empty territories after combat.

What I said couldn't be done (from the OP's example "The invader Declares on both territories but send all of his army on B to fight against Territory A.") was that, after the territories for combat had been declared (A&C) and attacking units assigned for each combat, then for all the the units in B to attack A instead - since C had been declared then at least one unit could not be involved in the attack on A and had to attack C as originally declared.

Hope that is clearer.
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Chad Lawrence
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But is the action for C an attack, or just an invasion?

On page 12, the rules say:

He may divide his units to attack
more than one of those declared territories, but each
unit can participate in only one battle per turn, so before
beginning his Combat Action, the player must announce
which territory each unit will attack and place the unit
near the declared territory’s border.


But on page 10 in the Declare Battles Section, it says:

After the Reinforcements Action of each turn, the player
must declare which territories he plans to attack (if any)
during his Combat Action (described on page 15) and/or
invade during his Invasion Action (described on page 18).


That makes it sound like an attack is not the same as an invasion, which would mean that you could put all the units in B against A, then move one of them to C during the invasion round.

That's how I read it, but I'm not 100% sure I'm correct. The only thing I'm sure of is that the rules aren't clear on this.
 
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Dangerous Partners
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You are right in that the Attack and Invasion are different - the Attack is the Combat and the Invasion any Movement into friendly or empty declared territories.
In the original, which I play a lot, it was just called "1st Movement -> Combat -> 2nd Movement", this would be easier for new players to understand.

Look at it this way:

DECLARE
Declare which territories you will attack.

MANOUVRE (1st Movement)
Any initial movement after which you must have units assigned to the territories you have Declared. These units must then attack those territories (no changing your mind, your commanders have manouvred into position and can't race a hundred miles in the opposite direction at your whim ).

COMBAT
Biffo time.

INVASION (2nd Movement)

Units may move into friendly or empty declared territories. Units who attacked a certain territory may move into the same, different or no territories.

Now get fighting !
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Ryan Hanson
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I'd love to get fighting but I'm still not sure Ricardo's first question has been answered!

The one question still remaining is, do you have to declare units to attack an empty territory?

BeerAndBoard clearly thinks so. But from reading the rules I'm just not convinced, the rules only seem to require assignment of units to combats.

This is a fairly big deal for the invader early on, as having to peel units off from combats to occupy empty territories can weaken attacks, requiring some difficult choices. So it's going to affect game balance either way.
 
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Dangerous Partners
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Hansolo88 wrote:
I'd love to get fighting but I'm still not sure Ricardo's original question has been answered!

The one question still remaining is, do you have to declare units to attack an empty territory?

BeerAndBoard clearly thinks so. But from reading the rules I'm just not convinced, the rules only seem to require assignment of units to combats.

This is a fairly big deal for the invader early on, as having to peel units off from combats to occupy empty territories can weaken attacks, requiring some difficult choices. So it's going to affect game balance either way.


As far as I can see in the old and new rules there is no distinction between unoccupied and occupied enemy territories when Declaring - they are both just referred to as Declared Territories.

Here are the most pertinent sections from the new rules (with my red highlights) - don't over-think the game, it's a relatively simple but very enjoyable light wargame.


2. DECLARE BATTLES ACTION
After the Reinforcements Action of each turn, the player must declare which territories he plans to attack (if any) during his Combat Action (described on page 15) and/or invade during his Invasion Action (described on page 18).
Each of these territories is considered a DECLARED TERRITORY.

Battles are declared only against enemy territories (either occupied or unoccupied) — never against friendly territories.


3. MANEUVERS ACTION
After the Declare Battles Action, players move their military units into position for combat in declared territories.

COMBAT POSITION
When a player declares an attack, he must have units in COMBAT POSITION by the end of his Maneuvers Action.

Special Combat Position Rules: If the units in a territory are in combat position with more than one declared territory, a player must choose which of those declared territories each unit will attack (or choose that the unit will not attack this turn). He may divide his units to attack more than one of those declared territories, but each unit can participate in only one battle per turn, so before beginning his Combat Action, the player must announce which territory each unit will attack and place the unit near the declared territory’s border.

If a player has units in more than one territory that are in combat position to attack the same territory, he can use any combination of those units to attack the territory.
However, a player cannot resolve more than one battle in the same declared territory per turn and each unit can only participate in one battle per turn.

GENERAL MANEUVERS ACTION RULES
For each declared territory, if a player does not already have a military unit in combat position with that territory, he must move one or more units into combat position with that declared territory.
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Ryan Hanson
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Wow, BoardAndBeer (geez would it have killed you to use your real name), I think you may have finally convinced me. Very good job putting all that together.

I was missing the fact about battles being declared against enemy territories, occupied or unoccupied.

So to answer Ricardo's original question, yes, you do need to "attack" unoccupied territories with at least one unit or else it would have been illegal to place a declared marker there. After combats have been resolved, however, there is complete freedom about where units can invasion move, provided units only move into friendly territories or declared territories free of enemy units where at least 1 non-bomber attacking unit survived.

Does that sound right?

If so I've been playing my practice solo game wrong and it's been giving the invaders more flexibility than they should actually have.
 
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I think you've got it - now go deal to those yankee capitalists.

PS The Invaders don't need any extra help !
 
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Chad Lawrence
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I'm convinced as well, now that I see that you declare attacks against territories, and not necessarily enemy units.

Now I'll have to go play again with these "new rules"
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Marcel van der pol
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I agree. If you want to capture an empty enemy area, you need to declare an ATTACK against it and that means you need to dedicate at least ONE unit to ATTACK the empty enemy area. If you do not attack it with at least one unit, there is no ATTACK there and hence no marker.

As a house rule, we usually swap the Declare Attack and Maneuvers phase. This is usefull especially for new players. So first you move your units in the Maneuver phase and THEN you place Attack markers. Its seems easier and more intuitive to me anyway.
 
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Ryan Hanson
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marcelvdpol wrote:
As a house rule, we usually swap the Declare Attack and Maneuvers phase. This is useful especially for new players. So first you move your units in the Maneuver phase and THEN you place Attack markers. Its seems easier and more intuitive to me anyway.


Yeah, I'm inclined to agree that this is MUCH simpler.

The only problem, and the reason the rules are the way they are, is that the helicopter and bomber special abilities both require there to be declared markers on the board during the maneuver phase. So you would just have to place declare markers when executing those special abilities I guess.
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Marcel van der pol
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Quote:
The only problem, and the reason the rules are the way they are, is that the helicopter and bomber special abilities both require there to be declared markers on the board during the maneuver phase. So you would just have to place declare markers when executing those special abilities I guess.


True, but if you place the markers when you are done moving the bombers and helicopters this is not really an issue. There is no way to mistake or abuse either the Scouting or Bombing rules; after all your helicopter and bomber end up in enemy territory during the Maneuver phase and hence its pretty clear that they are using their special ability rather than a "normal" move, as the special ability is the only thing which allows them to do so.
 
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Ryan Hanson
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Right, I agree. I tried playing like this for a couple turns and it is easier to place declare markers after maneuver movement is complete, instead of having to try to visualize what the future board position will look like after maneuver movement. So I do think this would be easier for newer players especially, and the air unit issues are very minor as you say.

The only other downside to doing it this way is that the player aid clearly shows declare territories before maneuver movement so you would just have to somehow explain to new players why you are deviating from the written sequence of play.

So next we need a Fortress Netherlands, eh?
 
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Dangerous Partners
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Strange how gamers have happily managed to play it with the normal rules (place your orders and then move your units) for 26 years ... perhaps noobie gamers these days are cut from a different cloth .

And it's not as if it's a strange or rare system - new games like A Game of Thrones place orders (hidden as well) that are then resolved after ... BUT it is only a boardgame, and entertainment medium, so play it however gives you the most fun (and gives sales to FFG so they can spend that money to make more games for us).
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Ryan Hanson
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Don't misunderstand me, I think the mechanic as designed works perfectly fine and I'm not criticizing it in any way. Also, note that the minor change Marcel and I are discussing has no actual impact on gameplay, it's purely for teaching purposes so that new players can better understand where they should place declare markers.

I do think new gamers these days are cut from a broader cloth, the people I intend to play Fortress America with are not hardcore wargamers and the environment we play in usually has a lot of distractions (we all have kids, etc.). We also don't get many sessions in and don't replay games as many times as I would like. So anything that makes teaching the game the first time a little more streamlined helps quite a bit.
 
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Hansolo88 wrote:
I do think new gamers these days are cut from a broader cloth, the people I intend to play Fortress America with are not hardcore wargamers and the environment we play in usually has a lot of distractions (we all have kids, etc.). We also don't get many sessions in and don't replay games as many times as I would like. So anything that makes teaching the game the first time a little more streamlined helps quite a bit.

You forget this came out as a kids/family game by Milton Bradley and has been played by probably tens, hundreds of thousands of people since then - a lot of hobby gamers these days are used to 3 page rulebooks that you find in euros and seem to think anything longer is complicated or a waste of their time.
This is not a hard game to play cool - no matter what people say.
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Ryan Hanson
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BeerAndBoard wrote:
Hansolo88 wrote:
I do think new gamers these days are cut from a broader cloth, the people I intend to play Fortress America with are not hardcore wargamers and the environment we play in usually has a lot of distractions (we all have kids, etc.). We also don't get many sessions in and don't replay games as many times as I would like. So anything that makes teaching the game the first time a little more streamlined helps quite a bit.

You forget this came out as a kids/family game by Milton Bradley and has been played by probably tens, hundreds of thousands of people since then - a lot of hobby gamers these days are used to 3 page rulebooks that you find in euros and seem to think anything longer is complicated or a waste of their time.
This is not a hard game to play cool - no matter what people say.


Very true, and certainly I would agree that the game is not particularly difficult to learn or play by any standards.

I do think that euro games are much to blame for players today being more picky about elegant mechanics and turn sequences. I was playing Axis and Allies in 5th grade so I have a long history with Ameritrash style games. Still, I'm definitely more critical of their clunky rules sets now than I was back then, after having played so many euro games and other more modern wargame designs. That said, I do own and greatly enjoy both games of Axis and Allies 1940 and I wanted Fortress America as soon as it came out. I'm definitely committed to Ameritrash as a genre.

It really is to Fantasy Flight's credit that they didn't change the game any more than they did. It must have been tempting for them to do a more thorough streamlining of the game to bring it up to more "modern" standards. But they kept almost the entireity of the original rules and mechanics which, as you say, have been greatly enjoyed by many thousands of people for decades now.
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Hansolo88 wrote:
It really is to Fantasy Flight's credit that they didn't change the game any more than they did.

It would have been more to their credit had they not obfuscated things that were perfectly clear in the original (at least according to what I've been told by people who have read the new rules - see here). I'll go along with the less changes is better idea, though, for a great game like this one. For full marks, they could left well enough alone and just republished the original rules.
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Marcel van der pol
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Quote:
And it's not as if it's a strange or rare system - new games like A Game of Thrones place orders (hidden as well) that are then resolved after ...


Well, Game of Thrones has quite a different turn sequence where people are doing things almost simultaneously (I think; I haven't played GoT in some time now). If the turn sequence in GoT was that one player goes through all the phases, then the next player goes, Hidden Orders would not do anything as other people cannot respond to it.

F:A has this You-Go-I-Go system; the opponent cannot respond or do anything between the player placing his Battle Markers and the player moving his units; therefore the order in which these two are executed is not really that important in F:A. In GoT this is completely different as GoT plays much more like Diplomacy where player actions as executed simultaneously with all other players.
 
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marcelvdpol wrote:
Quote:
And it's not as if it's a strange or rare system - new games like A Game of Thrones place orders (hidden as well) that are then resolved after ...


Well, Game of Thrones has quite a different turn sequence where people are doing things almost simultaneously (I think; I haven't played GoT in some time now). If the turn sequence in GoT was that one player goes through all the phases, then the next player goes, Hidden Orders would not do anything as other people cannot respond to it.

F:A has this You-Go-I-Go system; the opponent cannot respond or do anything between the player placing his Battle Markers and the player moving his units; therefore the order in which these two are executed is not really that important in F:A. In GoT this is completely different as GoT plays much more like Diplomacy where player actions as executed simultaneously with all other players.

The point (that you missed) is that it is similar to your complaint - you have to place your orders with all your movements/actions planned only in your mind (the same as FA), and it's harder because you know that some of your actions may be interrupted by another player during the round-robin turn sequence ... so FA is pretty easy really guy.
 
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