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Subject: Liberal minds at work yet again rss

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Isaac Citrom
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Wait a minute? I thought the new and improved U.S. healthcare system would actually become cheaper due to costs savings in being more efficient. Was that not the previous mantra?

When I and others said several times, just based on common sense, providing more helthcare (i.e. for more people) will invariably cost more, either the pool of money will have to increase, or the amount of care overall will be diluted. Experience with all social endeavours has borne this out again and again and again.

It seems now that for the history-starts-afresh-every-morning crowd, no such thing was ever mentioned. This in a nut shell is why I don't believe anything libs have to say, ever, U.N. statistic-based arguments and all.

To be fair, their argument is not directly support for any political compromise. Rather it is support for one more step toward genuine socialized healthcare. The instable steps along the way are at best a necessary evil. Their argument is that if and when a full and proper socialized healthcare system is in place, then what they do say about it will come into effect.

From a conservative point-of-view, well yes, we've heard that a gagillion times. Unless all parts of a fully realized socialist state are in place, piecemeal efforts will actually be worse. An important national debate is whether Americans envision that for themselves.

Entirely selfishly, I do hope the U.S. maintains its second-to-none quality medical care. When Canadian healthacre is lacking in life-or-death aspects, we need and like to have a place we can zip across the border to and get what we need in order not to die, out-of-pocket expenses be damned.


I'll say it yet again. Americans are not locked into any one method of providing healthcare. Indeed, they are world-famous for husbanding national effort toward important goals. Come up with your own unique system that provides socialized but mediocre helthcare for the masses, but preserves the economic incentives for a parallel set of services that are at the bleeding edge of medical science.

I say that with the emphasis due a forum post on a gaming site. It may well aggravate social tension, especially in a generation that believes it is entitled, by the very laws of nature, to the maximum that they can imagine, "what do you mean, my hospital bed is not iPhone-ready? It's my Human right!"
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isaacc wrote:
I'll say it yet again. Americans are not locked into any one method of providing healthcare. Indeed, they are world-famous for husbanding national effort toward important goals. Come up with your own unique system that provides socialized but mediocre helthcare for the masses, but preserves the economic incentives for a parallel set of services that are at the bleeding edge of medical science.


France beat you to that, I'm afraid. So did Germany for that matter.
 
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I knew I liked you for a reason Isaac.
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isaacc wrote:

Entirely selfishly, I do hope the U.S. maintains its second-to-none quality medical care.

Muhahahahahahahahahaahaha
Maybe if you write it again a thousand time while chanting a mystic mantra with a peacock feather affixed to a gold tiara, dancing in the light of the full moon, it shall become true.
Probably, for a huge amount of money, you can get the best healthcare anywhere in the first world, so what matter is really the average health of the average citizen; there is little doubt that US is far from being the second-to-none quality medical care for its average citizen.
But even with a huge amount of money that pays for the reputedly best doctors, you do not have the best of them: recently I've read an interesting study showing that the main factor in the high salary of some specialists was reputation, and that reputation was not linked to a measurable talent.
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Boaty McBoatface
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HavocIsHere wrote:
isaacc wrote:

Entirely selfishly, I do hope the U.S. maintains its second-to-none quality medical care.

Muhahahahahahahahahaahaha
Maybe if you write it again a thousand time while chanting a mystic mantra with a peacock feather affixed to a gold tiara, dancing in the light of the full moon, it shall become true.
Probably, for a huge amount of money, you can get the best healthcare anywhere in the first world, so what matter is really the average health of the average citizen; there is little doubt that US is far from being the second-to-none quality medical care for its average citizen.
But even with a huge amount of money that pays for the reputedly best doctors, you do not have the best of them: recently I've read an interesting study showing that the main factor in the high salary of some specialists was reputation, and that reputation was not linked to a measurable talent.


Excalty the US healthcare system is in fact 37th to 37 (Canada by the way is 10th to 37).
 
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slatersteven wrote:
HavocIsHere wrote:
isaacc wrote:

Entirely selfishly, I do hope the U.S. maintains its second-to-none quality medical care.

Muhahahahahahahahahaahaha
Maybe if you write it again a thousand time while chanting a mystic mantra with a peacock feather affixed to a gold tiara, dancing in the light of the full moon, it shall become true.
Probably, for a huge amount of money, you can get the best healthcare anywhere in the first world, so what matter is really the average health of the average citizen; there is little doubt that US is far from being the second-to-none quality medical care for its average citizen.
But even with a huge amount of money that pays for the reputedly best doctors, you do not have the best of them: recently I've read an interesting study showing that the main factor in the high salary of some specialists was reputation, and that reputation was not linked to a measurable talent.


Exactly the US healthcare system is in fact 37th to 37 (Canada by the way is 10th to 37).


source please and where is the glorious NHS?
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Boaty McBoatface
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muntmeister wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
HavocIsHere wrote:
isaacc wrote:

Entirely selfishly, I do hope the U.S. maintains its second-to-none quality medical care.

Muhahahahahahahahahaahaha
Maybe if you write it again a thousand time while chanting a mystic mantra with a peacock feather affixed to a gold tiara, dancing in the light of the full moon, it shall become true.
Probably, for a huge amount of money, you can get the best healthcare anywhere in the first world, so what matter is really the average health of the average citizen; there is little doubt that US is far from being the second-to-none quality medical care for its average citizen.
But even with a huge amount of money that pays for the reputedly best doctors, you do not have the best of them: recently I've read an interesting study showing that the main factor in the high salary of some specialists was reputation, and that reputation was not linked to a measurable talent.


Exactly the US healthcare system is in fact 37th to 37 (Canada by the way is 10th to 37).


source please and where is the glorious NHS?


United Nations World Population Prospects: 2006 revision – Table A.17 for 2005-2010, the UK is 13th.
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I'll ignore your usual strawman stuff, because...

isaacc wrote:
I'll say it yet again. Americans are not locked into any one method of providing healthcare. Indeed, they are world-famous for husbanding national effort toward important goals. Come up with your own unique system that provides socialized but mediocre helthcare for the masses, but preserves the economic incentives for a parallel set of services that are at the bleeding edge of medical science.


this is pretty much what I think we should do. Make sure everyone gets care and has access to all the generic drugs that they need. Let the well off finance the cutting edge research that will be widely available later on.

What was passed is the first try at a real health care system for the country. If you want to shit on it because it isn't perfect, that's fine. I'd rather applaud the attempt and see where it gets us.
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Isaac Citrom
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HavocIsHere wrote:
isaacc wrote:

Entirely selfishly, I do hope the U.S. maintains its second-to-none quality medical care.

Muhahahahahahahahahaahaha
Maybe if you write it again a thousand time while chanting a mystic mantra with a peacock feather affixed to a gold tiara, dancing in the light of the full moon, it shall become true.
Probably, for a huge amount of money, you can get the best healthcare anywhere in the first world, so what matter is really the average health of the average citizen; there is little doubt that US is far from being the second-to-none quality medical care for its average citizen.
But even with a huge amount of money that pays for the reputedly best doctors, you do not have the best of them: recently I've read an interesting study showing that the main factor in the high salary of some specialists was reputation, and that reputation was not linked to a measurable talent.


Here is the difference between how the Left thinks the world functions and how it really does.

On the face of it, since Canadians have their own stupendous healthcare system, they would not be travelling to the US for it.

For example: diagnostic equipment; there is a gross lack of it. My mother just waited 6 weeks to get back a cancer pathology report.

Anything having to do with an MRI or CT Scan (do they still use CT Scans in the US?) is a long wait--months. Recently, private MRI clinics were approved of. Until then, if you wanted to know if that thingy the X-Ray picked up is life-threatening, you waited the 4 months or you hopped over to Plattsburgh NY, $1500 in-hand. Now, you can pay the $1500 to a local clinic.

Cleveland, demographically similar to Toronto, has about 10 times the diagnostic capacity.

The province of Quebec, for the 7 million of us, has exactly zero emergency air-lift capacity. I believe Toronoto still has oly the 2 helicopters.

And, I could go on ad infinitum. Havoc, do you live in Canada?
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Boaty McBoatface
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isaacc wrote:
HavocIsHere wrote:
isaacc wrote:

Entirely selfishly, I do hope the U.S. maintains its second-to-none quality medical care.

Muhahahahahahahahahaahaha
Maybe if you write it again a thousand time while chanting a mystic mantra with a peacock feather affixed to a gold tiara, dancing in the light of the full moon, it shall become true.
Probably, for a huge amount of money, you can get the best healthcare anywhere in the first world, so what matter is really the average health of the average citizen; there is little doubt that US is far from being the second-to-none quality medical care for its average citizen.
But even with a huge amount of money that pays for the reputedly best doctors, you do not have the best of them: recently I've read an interesting study showing that the main factor in the high salary of some specialists was reputation, and that reputation was not linked to a measurable talent.


Here is the difference between how the Left thinks the world functions and how it really does.

On the face of it, since Canadians have their own stupendous healthcare system, they would not be travelling to the US for it.

For example: diagnostic equipment; there is a gross lack of it. My mother just waited 6 weeks to get back a cancer pathology report.

Anything having to do with an MRI or CT Scan (do they still use CT Scans in the US?) is a long wait--months. Recently, private MRI clinics were approved of. Until then, if you wanted to know if that thingy the X-Ray picked up is life-threatening, you waited the 4 months or you hopped over to Plattsburgh NY, $1500 in-hand. Now, you can pay the $1500 to a local clinic.

Cleveland, demographically similar to Toronto, has about 10 times the diagnostic capacity.

The province of Quebec, for the 7 million of us, has exactly zero emergency air-lift capacity. I believe Toronoto still has oly the 2 helicopters.

And, I could go on ad infinitum. Havoc, do you live in Canada?
.


The wny do Canadians live longer (ion average) then Americans? It it perhaops because in Canada every one get average healthcare where as in the US only those who can afford to pay do? Everyone else gets eitehr substanderd on no healthcare?

In Canada you have to wait, regardless of who you are, in American you get to not have the treatment in the first place.

O(f course the best system would be a system were we can all afford to pay for the best care, so we need a system that makes us all earn a very good wage.
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isaacc wrote:

And, I could go on ad infinitum. Havoc, do you live in Canada?
.

No, I live in Belgium. We have no lack of medical supplies, we have an excellent public health system, and we also have private insurances for those insisting on receiving hotel-class catering in hospitals and paying their doctors huge tips. As for me, I am treated by the same doctors using the same apparatus, same medications and I think hospital food tastes like shit whatever you pay (when I worked in IT, I got one of these insurances in my package and just got a little more luxury of it).
Better yet, I survived a very bad pronostic thanks to state of the art treatments and an ambitious doctor I picked myself and yet I am not endebted till the end of days.

Because you live in Canada and you've got a better experience of the US health care system does not mean that US health care system is the best in the world.

Also, you should not be obsessed by the left/right axis and think in terms of "the left" and "the right" when you try to guess what people think. There is no "the left"; there are people who think that in a civilized country, everybody's health and education is everybody's concern.
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slatersteven wrote:


The wny do Canadians live longer (ion average) then Americans? It it perhaops because in Canada every one get average healthcare where as in the US only those who can afford to pay do? Everyone else gets eitehr substanderd on no healthcare?



Without statistics, I'm going to guess that the reasons are:

The US has more deaths due to violent crime.

The US has higher traffic fatalities due to population density.

The US has unhealthier lifestyles, of which "better healthcare" wouldn't do squat unless the individuals actually act upon healthy recommendations (of which most do not.)
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Pinto wrote:
slatersteven wrote:


The wny do Canadians live longer (ion average) then Americans? It it perhaops because in Canada every one get average healthcare where as in the US only those who can afford to pay do? Everyone else gets eitehr substanderd on no healthcare?



Without statistics, I'm going to guess that the reasons are:

The US has more deaths due to violent crime.

The US has higher traffic fatalities due to population density.

The US has unhealthier lifestyles, of which "better healthcare" wouldn't do squat unless the individuals actually act upon healthy recommendations (of which most do not.)


http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/04/29/us-health-idUSTRE6...
 
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Pinto wrote:
slatersteven wrote:


The wny do Canadians live longer (ion average) then Americans? It it perhaops because in Canada every one get average healthcare where as in the US only those who can afford to pay do? Everyone else gets eitehr substanderd on no healthcare?



Without statistics, I'm going to guess that the reasons are:

The US has more deaths due to violent crime.

The US has higher traffic fatalities due to population density.

The US has unhealthier lifestyles, of which "better healthcare" wouldn't do squat unless the individuals actually act upon healthy recommendations (of which most do not.)


Hey well if we're allowed to guess:
- The deplorable violent crime stats in the US probably aren't drastic enough to make a significant impact on average longevity in such a large population.
- The US has very low population density on average.
- Unhealthy lifestyles + some healthcare is likely to be better than unhealthy lifestyles + no healthcare.
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isaacc wrote:

Entirely selfishly, I do hope the U.S. maintains its second-to-none quality medical care. When Canadian healthacre is lacking in life-or-death aspects, we need and like to have a place we can zip across the border to and get what we need in order not to die, out-of-pocket expenses be damned.


Assuming you can afford them in the first place.

Have you basically missed the entire argument about affordable healthcare in respect of the US system? Do you even think about what you write or does someone just push your "OMG THE LEFT LEFT!" button and off you run like battery operated yap dog?
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Fwing wrote:
isaacc wrote:

Entirely selfishly, I do hope the U.S. maintains its second-to-none quality medical care. When Canadian healthacre is lacking in life-or-death aspects, we need and like to have a place we can zip across the border to and get what we need in order not to die, out-of-pocket expenses be damned.


Assuming you can afford them in the first place.

Have you basically missed the entire argument about affordable healthcare in respect of the US system? Do you even think about what you write or does someone just push your "OMG THE LEFT LEFT!" button and off you run like battery operated yap dog?


Over 40 million in U.S. can't afford health care.
 
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muntmeister wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
HavocIsHere wrote:
isaacc wrote:

Entirely selfishly, I do hope the U.S. maintains its second-to-none quality medical care.

Muhahahahahahahahahaahaha
Maybe if you write it again a thousand time while chanting a mystic mantra with a peacock feather affixed to a gold tiara, dancing in the light of the full moon, it shall become true.
Probably, for a huge amount of money, you can get the best healthcare anywhere in the first world, so what matter is really the average health of the average citizen; there is little doubt that US is far from being the second-to-none quality medical care for its average citizen.
But even with a huge amount of money that pays for the reputedly best doctors, you do not have the best of them: recently I've read an interesting study showing that the main factor in the high salary of some specialists was reputation, and that reputation was not linked to a measurable talent.


Exactly the US healthcare system is in fact 37th to 37 (Canada by the way is 10th to 37).


source please and where is the glorious NHS?


Source:

 
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Selected infant mortality rates (deaths of infants under the age of one per 1,000 live births, 2011 estimates):
1. Afghanistan, 121.63
2. Niger, 109.98
174. United States, 5.98
182. Canada, 4.85
188. United Kingdom, 4.56
193. Belgium, 4.28
208. Germany, 3.51
212. France, 3.37
221. Japan, 2.21
222. Monaco, 1.80

Source: CIA - The World Factbook https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...
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slatersteven wrote:
Pinto wrote:
slatersteven wrote:


The wny do Canadians live longer (ion average) then Americans? It it perhaops because in Canada every one get average healthcare where as in the US only those who can afford to pay do? Everyone else gets eitehr substanderd on no healthcare?



Without statistics, I'm going to guess that the reasons are:

The US has more deaths due to violent crime.

The US has higher traffic fatalities due to population density.

The US has unhealthier lifestyles, of which "better healthcare" wouldn't do squat unless the individuals actually act upon healthy recommendations (of which most do not.)


http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/04/29/us-health-idUSTRE6...


.02% (thats 1/50s of 1%) doesn't seem like a large enough sampling to accurately judge anything, nor does your story provide real reason, only speculation.
 
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Dispaminite wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Pinto wrote:
slatersteven wrote:


The wny do Canadians live longer (ion average) then Americans? It it perhaops because in Canada every one get average healthcare where as in the US only those who can afford to pay do? Everyone else gets eitehr substanderd on no healthcare?



Without statistics, I'm going to guess that the reasons are:

The US has more deaths due to violent crime.

The US has higher traffic fatalities due to population density.

The US has unhealthier lifestyles, of which "better healthcare" wouldn't do squat unless the individuals actually act upon healthy recommendations (of which most do not.)


http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/04/29/us-health-idUSTRE6...


.02% (thats 1/50s of 1%) doesn't seem like a large enough sampling to accurately judge anything, nor does your story provide real reason, only speculation.


But it is an idenepdant source, not just my own guess work. Also are the higher levels of infant mortaility due to more babys being shot or run over?
 
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slatersteven wrote:
Fwing wrote:
isaacc wrote:

Entirely selfishly, I do hope the U.S. maintains its second-to-none quality medical care. When Canadian healthacre is lacking in life-or-death aspects, we need and like to have a place we can zip across the border to and get what we need in order not to die, out-of-pocket expenses be damned.


Assuming you can afford them in the first place.

Have you basically missed the entire argument about affordable healthcare in respect of the US system? Do you even think about what you write or does someone just push your "OMG THE LEFT LEFT!" button and off you run like battery operated yap dog?


Over 40 million in U.S. can't afford health care.


Roughly 45% of which generally are only uninsured for 4 months or less due to switching jobs (per 2007 stats) and 7% of which make over $50,000 a year and can pay for themselves, leaving 19.2 million Americans who truly need insurance help,
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slatersteven wrote:
Dispaminite wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Pinto wrote:
slatersteven wrote:


The wny do Canadians live longer (ion average) then Americans? It it perhaops because in Canada every one get average healthcare where as in the US only those who can afford to pay do? Everyone else gets eitehr substanderd on no healthcare?



Without statistics, I'm going to guess that the reasons are:

The US has more deaths due to violent crime.

The US has higher traffic fatalities due to population density.

The US has unhealthier lifestyles, of which "better healthcare" wouldn't do squat unless the individuals actually act upon healthy recommendations (of which most do not.)


http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/04/29/us-health-idUSTRE6...


.02% (thats 1/50s of 1%) doesn't seem like a large enough sampling to accurately judge anything, nor does your story provide real reason, only speculation.


But it is an idenepdant source, not just my own guess work. Also are the higher levels of infant mortaility due to more babys being shot or run over?


1 more in every 1000 births, and the CIA factbook doesn't provide reasons why.
 
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Dispaminite wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Fwing wrote:
isaacc wrote:

Entirely selfishly, I do hope the U.S. maintains its second-to-none quality medical care. When Canadian healthacre is lacking in life-or-death aspects, we need and like to have a place we can zip across the border to and get what we need in order not to die, out-of-pocket expenses be damned.


Assuming you can afford them in the first place.

Have you basically missed the entire argument about affordable healthcare in respect of the US system? Do you even think about what you write or does someone just push your "OMG THE LEFT LEFT!" button and off you run like battery operated yap dog?


Over 40 million in U.S. can't afford health care.


Roughly 45% of which generally are only uninsured for 4 months or less due to switching jobs (per 2007 stats) and 7% of which make over $50,000 a year and can pay for themselves, leaving 19.2 million Americans who truly need insurance help,


Even if that is true thats nealry 10% of the population.
 
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Dispaminite wrote:
1 more in every 1000 births, and the CIA factbook doesn't provide reasons why.

The higher infant mortality rate in the US is due to a much higher rate of premature births in the US. The smallest and earliest of those babies are born to poor and minority women who lack adequate prenatal care and social support.
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slatersteven wrote:
Dispaminite wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Fwing wrote:
isaacc wrote:

Entirely selfishly, I do hope the U.S. maintains its second-to-none quality medical care. When Canadian healthacre is lacking in life-or-death aspects, we need and like to have a place we can zip across the border to and get what we need in order not to die, out-of-pocket expenses be damned.


Assuming you can afford them in the first place.

Have you basically missed the entire argument about affordable healthcare in respect of the US system? Do you even think about what you write or does someone just push your "OMG THE LEFT LEFT!" button and off you run like battery operated yap dog?


Over 40 million in U.S. can't afford health care.


Roughly 45% of which generally are only uninsured for 4 months or less due to switching jobs (per 2007 stats) and 7% of which make over $50,000 a year and can pay for themselves, leaving 19.2 million Americans who truly need insurance help,


Even if that is true thats nealry 10% of the population.


5.4% of 355 million people

 
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