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Subject: Input needed for the new GMT Deluxe edition. rss

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Carl Paradis
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In the next two months I will be putting the final touches to the "North African" part of the GMT Deluxe NR2 game. This will mainly involve streamlining some parts of the rules, plus tweaking the counters and cards slightly.

If anybody has some suggestions to make toward this endeavour, please post them here.

I'll also finish making the "proof of concept" files & graphics for the add-on bonus game on the Airborne Invasion of Crete.

Thanks!
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Jan van der Laan
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As far as I'm concerned it's predecessor is a perfect example of what NR2 should look like. No fuzz, simple and clear counters, a great, and easy readable map and a well layed out rulebook with lots of play examples, a good index and a description of one or two full game turns. Never change a winning team!.
 
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Josiah Miller
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As someone who has struggled with learning the original No Retreat (the GMT version), I would love to see a turn example that runs through the first 2 complete turns of a game. An extended example is nice, but if it is lifted from the middle of the action, it is not as approachable as a learning tool. I would like to see how to get the ball rolling, more than seeing a snapshot of the action once it's in motion.
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Carl Paradis
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brotherjo wrote:
As someone who has struggled with learning the original No Retreat (the GMT version), I would love to see a turn example that runs through the first 2 complete turns of a game. An extended example is nice, but if it is lifted from the middle of the action, it is not as approachable as a learning tool. I would like to see how to get the ball rolling, more than seeing a snapshot of the action once it's in motion.


mhhh... perhaps not the first two turns, just one and a half perhaps. as this would be really long! in NR2 monthly/bimonthly game turns are split into a indefinite number of smaller tactical turns
Lasting a few days to a week when there is an ofensive, and where all the units of each side are moved each and every time! So you can have many sub-turns in an actual turns, depending on how many supply you have to continue the action.

but I'll see what I can do...
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Roger Lai
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Simplify the Malta sub system.

Also have more use for the cards, perhaps can be discarded for supply points. Like NR1.

And have a clear play aid detailing all combat modifiers and unit abilities.
 
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Carl Paradis
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rlai wrote:
1- Simplify the Malta sub system.

2- Also have more use for the cards, perhaps can be discarded for supply points. Like NR1.

3- And have a clear play aid detailing all combat modifiers and unit abilities.


1- The malta Sub-System is already very simple to simulate a complex situation! But i did find ways to make it a bit more simple, especialll the supply interdiction part.

2- In the first version of the game cards were discarded to get supply points, but it did not work well. So I splitted both. Mind you some event cards DO award you some Supply points already! As to the "Unplayable" cards (one with the wrong initiaive icon) I already added one use as an optional rule in the last version of the rules: They can be discarded to build Boxes/Mines. BUT I am also thinking about another extra way of making these cards useful (read on below).

3- I don't know if I have the card sheets in the game to do that, perhaps in the rulebook itself? I will streamline the modifiers, and make them easier to see, probably with the help of some graphics on the counters.

Some stuff I am thinking of changing:

- I will most probably go for Tank Profiles on the Armor counters. I don't have the space in the game to offer both profiles and NATO symbols for these, but givent that in this Desert setting you had a lot of "pure" tank formations, I think this is better.

- Given that there are many tactical battle "sub-turns" in one strategic Game Turn, I will probably add a mechanism where you can keep activated for more than one "sub-turn" some of the even cards that can affect a battle (ex: Stukas), but you have to "pay" to keep the card activated. I'm thinking using supply points or card discards (the otherwise "unplayable" cards).
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cc the calm
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licinius wrote:


- I will most probably go for Tank Profiles on the Armor coutners. I don't have the space in the game to offer both profiles and NATO symbols for these, but givent that in this Desert setting you had a lot of "pure" tank formations, I think this is better.
thumbsup I like those more than the "usual" ones.

I know that you said it´s difficult, but I´ll take this as another chance to emphasize how important a solitaire module is for some of us! It increases the chance for the game to hit the table tremendously!
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Carl Paradis
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cmdrc wrote:
licinius wrote:


- I will most probably go for Tank Profiles on the Armor coutners. I don't have the space in the game to offer both profiles and NATO symbols for these, but givent that in this Desert setting you had a lot of "pure" tank formations, I think this is better.
thumbsup I like those more than the "usual" ones.

I know that you said it´s difficult, but I´ll take this as another chance to emphasize how important a solitaire module is for some of us! It increases the chance for the game to hit the table tremendously!


Yes, I understand. And I'm probably also in your "some of us" group... I mean: Since 2008 I was able to play my own "No Retreat!1" game only three times against somebody else!!! For "No Retreat!2" this has not happened yet... soblue

Alas, there will NOT be a solitaire module for NR2 proper: the way the game is designed this is really almost impossible to do in a concise manner. Plus this was not included in the GMT "form factor" for the game Perhaps one day I can find a genial idea to make this possible, not for now.

BUT there will be a solitaire module for the Bonus "Crete" add-on game!
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Tang Sam
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licinius wrote:
- I will most probably go for Tank Profiles on the Armor counters. I don't have the space in the game to offer both profiles and NATO symbols for these, but givent that in this Desert setting you had a lot of "pure" tank formations, I think this is better.

I do prefer the NATO symbols as they are more inline with the other unit counters in the game.
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Carl Paradis
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samtang wrote:
I do prefer the NATO symbols as they are more inline with the other unit counters in the game.


Yes, But I do have a choice to make. Or perhaps a combination of the two? This was the desert war, and if there is a setting where "pure" tank units were operating and vehicle profiles should be used, this it it!
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Carl Paradis
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Here are a series of possible alternatives for the counters. I like the first one (brown/tan counter).



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Randall Shaw
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"I like the first one (brown/tan counter)."

thumbsupthumbsup
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Chris Farrell
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We've really struggled with the VPG NR2 rulebook, and I think that some time spent thinking about how to re-order the presentation and get good cross-references in there would be really helpful. As it is now, to me it's rather confusing. Just for one example, the Offensive Continuation is mentioned only in the Sequence of Play overview (it doesn't help that the reference chart has it in the wrong place). The Strategic Reserve is never called out and explained, it's embedded in the text for setup and movement with no cross-references - the setup could really use a cross-reference to the explanation in movement. It makes it hard to figure out.

I think this is one of those games where explaining everything in sequence-of-play order is maybe not the way to go. For example, rule 5.1, which goes into Malta, is confusing because you know nothing about Malta at that point - how it becomes active, why it might be active, even just what it is in game terms. Because it crops up so often, a basic outline of what's up with Malta might be useful very early in the process of explanation. In general, it feels like there are a lot of forward-references in the rules which make the game hard to understand. I picked up No Retreat! very quickly but found I got very little intuitive understanding of NR2 from reading the rules.

I also think Boxes/Mines could use their own section. They are both terrain features and units in a way that isn't really explained and is tricky enough to be worth calling out. I think everything is adequately explained, but still, we puzzled over it.

Obviously, the reference cards could be more helpfully laid out. Having the German and Italian CRTs on opposite sides of one sheet isn't great, and having the battle sequence on the opposite side of the British CRT likewise isn't awesome - but I assume GMT will have more real estate to work with.
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Chris Greaves
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licinius wrote:
Here are a series of possible alternatives for the counters. I like the first one (brown/tan counter).





Yes the tan is nice; I like the tank profile.
 
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Carl Paradis
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Thanks Chris!

I am in the midst this week of revamping all the rules and was also checking the counter layout.

I'm still not sure if I'll use Tank Profiles or Nato Icons on the counters, and I do not have the space to offer both, like for Deluxe No Retreat. But I am slowly inching toward the "Tank Profile" solution.

And for consistency's sake, I'll most probably keep those tank counters exactly like those of the First game (so no profile/Nato combination).
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Tonny Wille
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When I play no retreat... I always use the counters with the tank profiles. I'm also sure that my girldfriend will prefer the Tank profile. She hasn't played no retreat yet but I'm turning her into a wargamer I had already succes with band of brothers and the invasion of canada so lets hope she likes this game to

Still have to preorder this though blush
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John Fairley
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In order of preference:

Just Nato
Just Profile (but solid colour, not painted like the Deluxe NR)
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