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Subject: Can a player pass without discarding? rss

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Salim Khoury
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I understand that a player must either issue orders or pass but I keep going back and forth on the interpretation of O15. Pass (Discard).

Can a player pass and retain his entire hand or is there a minimum discard requirement (penalty?) associated with passing?

I feel like if there were a minimum discard requirement the rule would be worded differently, so this morning I think the answer is: Yes, a player may pass and retain the entire hand.
 
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David desJardins
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Salimo wrote:
I understand that a player must either issue orders or pass but I keep going back and forth on the interpretation of O15. Pass (Discard).


Are you looking at the 1.1 rulebook? The original rulebook said discard one or more cards. The current rulebook says discard any number of cards. It was expressly changed to let you discard no cards. For one thing, you might not have any cards at the start of your turn!

I don't think the rules say what to do if both players have full hands and both players choose to pass and not discard.

In general, if you have a full hand, passing just to keep your hand doesn't work very well, your opponent can optimize his own hand by discarding one card at a time until he gets what he wants. But it's a legal choice.
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Salim Khoury
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Thanks David, I just needed certainty on this one as well.

I only have v1.1 so I didn't know what the original rule said though I noticed the blue type and could tell it was trying to clarify the very question I had.
 
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David desJardins
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Salimo wrote:
I only have v1.1 so I didn't know what the original rule said


The original rulebook is here: CC_Rulebook_final.pdf.
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Salim Khoury
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Salimo wrote:
I only have v1.1 so I didn't know what the original rule said


The original rulebook is here: CC_Rulebook_final.pdf.


Sweet, that's helpful!
 
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Charles Hasegawa
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Salimo wrote:
Thanks David, I just needed certainty on this one as well.

I only have v1.1 so I didn't know what the original rule said though I noticed the blue type and could tell it was trying to clarify the very question I had.


I believe the blue type was done to indicate a change in the rules from the original rules.
 
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David desJardins
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Tatsu wrote:
I believe the blue type was done to indicate a change in the rules from the original rules.


Yes, of course. But that doesn't tell you what the old text was.
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Salim Khoury
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Tatsu wrote:
I believe the blue type was done to indicate a change in the rules from the original rules.


Yes, of course. But that doesn't tell you what the old text was.



Right, that's all I meant. I did know what the blue type was for.
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Mr G
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I recall a particular scenario where three German fire bases are defending a causeway near Carentan. The US TROOPS ultimately need to assault.

As the Germans, I generated what I thought to be the very best hand to deal with the assault and held it by passing for many turns. It DID allow the opponent to generate a good hand, but it then came down to one good hand vs another.

And an outstanding shimmy move using an advance by the German NCO to win the game. Happy days.
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John McLintock
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fentum wrote:
I recall a particular scenario where three German fire bases are defending a causeway near Carentan. The US TROOPS ultimately need to assault.

As the Germans, I generated what I thought to be the very best hand to deal with the assault and held it by passing for many turns. It DID allow the opponent to generate a good hand, but it then came down to one good hand vs another.

And an outstanding shimmy move using an advance by the German NCO to win the game. Happy days.

I was in the identical tactical position once, defending as the Germans in Scenario 5. Cold Front. I talked about this many moons ago on a thread. Here is a picture I put together on VASSAL at the time:

I held 2 Fire cards- one for each flank, a Recover/Spray Fire, and a Crossfire. I knew my opponent would have to move sooner or later. So my men just cocked their weapons and waited. When the rush came, the Soviets didn't get very far (Spray Fire/Crossfire which includes an already broken moving unit is just such fun!).
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David desJardins
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JMcL63 wrote:
I held 2 Fire cards- one for each flank, a Recover/Spray Fire, and a Crossfire. I knew my opponent would have to move sooner or later. So my men just cocked their weapons and waited. When the rush came, the Soviets didn't get very far (Spray Fire/Crossfire which includes an already broken moving unit is just such fun!).


It's pretty easy for the attacker to overcome this plan. He needs to deploy his troops in three, or preferably four, separate mobile groups. Then he can activate his leaders one by one, if you shoot at one group he just stops moving it and moves a different one. If you've let him accumulate a hand with four Move cards. He's also going to have a Recover, so if you do break a couple of units they will likely just recover. And the groups that you are out of Fire cards to shoot at, are going to end up right on top of you.
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Luka Kovač Plavi
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Where are discard limits listed?

In the rulebook (instead of saying it directly -.-') it says it is listed on the player aid sheet. But I don't seem to find that number.
 
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TonyKR
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Avtomatik wrote:
Where are discard limits listed?

In the rulebook (instead of saying it directly -.-') it says it is listed on the player aid sheet. But I don't seem to find that number.

Upper right corner on the non-terrain side. From 1 to 6 depending on nationality.
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Michael Olsen
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DaviddesJ wrote:
I don't think the rules say what to do if both players have full hands and both players choose to pass and not discard.


You are right, they do not, which is an annoying oversight.

I choose to play so that if both players "passes" with no discarding 4 times in a row (so 8 total) the game ends and the VP are determined normally.
Not that it ever happened. And not that it ever will happen. Still, I wanted to have a rule for it : - )
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Russ Williams
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Michael_Olsen wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
I don't think the rules say what to do if both players have full hands and both players choose to pass and not discard.


You are right, they do not, which is an annoying oversight.

I choose to play so that if both players "passes" with no discarding 4 times in a row (so 8 total) the game ends and the VP are determined normally.
Not that it ever happened. And not that it ever will happen. Still, I wanted to have a rule for it : - )

Another idea:
I think that in most games where passing like this is possible, if both players repeatedly pass, then the game ends in a draw. Which seems reasonable to me: if one player is winning, then rationally they should probably not keep passing, but prefer to discard to run the time out and end the game.
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Michael Olsen
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russ wrote:
Michael_Olsen wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
I don't think the rules say what to do if both players have full hands and both players choose to pass and not discard.


You are right, they do not, which is an annoying oversight.

I choose to play so that if both players "passes" with no discarding 4 times in a row (so 8 total) the game ends and the VP are determined normally.
Not that it ever happened. And not that it ever will happen. Still, I wanted to have a rule for it : - )

Another idea:
I think that in most games where passing like this is possible, if both players repeatedly pass, then the game ends in a draw. Which seems reasonable to me: if one player is winning, then rationally they should probably not keep passing, but prefer to discard to run the time out and end the game. :)


Yes, but... is that not the same as I said? : - ) I simply placed a number on the amount of passings needed.
 
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Russ Williams
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Michael_Olsen wrote:
russ wrote:
Michael_Olsen wrote:
the game ends and the VP are determined normally.

then the game ends in a draw.


Yes, but... is that not the same as I said? : -

No, not at all!
You said the game ends and the VP are determined normally.
I said the game ends in a draw.


(Well, unless you meant that after you determine the VPs normally, you ignore the VPs and declare the game a draw in any case. But I don't think you meant that.)
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Michael Olsen
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russ wrote:
Michael_Olsen wrote:
russ wrote:
Michael_Olsen wrote:
the game ends and the VP are determined normally.

then the game ends in a draw.


Yes, but... is that not the same as I said? : -

No, not at all!
You said the game ends and the VP are determined normally.
I said the game ends in a draw.


(Well, unless you meant that after you determine the VPs normally, you ignore the VPs and declare the game a draw in any case. But I don't think you meant that.) :)


Ah yes, sorry, I obviously was not paying enough attention. Shame on me!

So a draw, hmm yes, that actually makes more sense. It is the same rule as chess then if memory serves.
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Luka Kovač Plavi
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Pugnax555 wrote:
Avtomatik wrote:
Where are discard limits listed?

In the rulebook (instead of saying it directly -.-') it says it is listed on the player aid sheet. But I don't seem to find that number.

Upper right corner on the non-terrain side. From 1 to 6 depending on nationality.


Thanks. I only realized that I had that player aid out of the box at the shelf when we were already done and I was putting the game back, so i was looking at the support sheets that don't have that info.
It is a shame however, that it is mentioned several times in the rulebook, and listed as 'look at the player aid', instead of just giving you the numbers. Would be about the same amount of text.
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