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Eclipse: Rise of the Ancients» Forums » General

Subject: More Orbital/Monolith Tiles? rss

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Don Schneider
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In a few recent 6 player games we ran out of orbital/monolith tiles. And i think there is a tendency for us to keep running out of them in all our full house games . It was so unpleasant to use some improvised sheets of paper to substitute them. By any chance it is possible and not so expensive to add something like 10 additional orbital/monolith tiles in expansion prints?
 
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Sampo Sikiö
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The expansion is already being printed. It would also have added significantly to the cost.

This is also the first time I've heard of anyone running out of these tiles -- anyone else? While it's very unlikely that additional tile will be printed, I guess it could be possible to provide downloadable tile images that you could print and glue on the blanks provided with the base game.
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Daniel Hammond
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kilgore wrote:
The expansion is already being printed. It would also have added significantly to the cost.

This is also the first time I've heard of anyone running out of these tiles -- anyone else? While it's very unlikely that additional tile will be printed, I guess it could be possible to provide downloadable tile images that you could print and glue on the blanks provided with the base game.


Buy plastic monoliths :). 6 non-aggressive players could build out a lot of them if they weren't fighting and stuff like that.
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Mathue Faulkner
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kilgore wrote:
The expansion is already being printed. It would also have added significantly to the cost.

This is also the first time I've heard of anyone running out of these tiles -- anyone else? While it's very unlikely that additional tile will be printed, I guess it could be possible to provide downloadable tile images that you could print and glue on the blanks provided with the base game.

We've never even come close to running out of them...even when we playtested a 7+ game. I would think there would have to be a lack of aggression in order to regularly run out of those tiles.
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Troy Creamer
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If you run out its time to start battling other players.
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Geoff Speare
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Sounds like a wonderful BGG expansion. They could even be "special" monoliths (with pink sparkles or something)...
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Peter O
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I've never run out and we do lots of 6 player games. If your group goes all in then a little monolith bling from a third party may be in order. Also, attack the guy next to you to thank him for building all that wonderful stuff for you. He probably can't defend it.
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Peter B
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I cannot imagine running out of orbitals and monoliths. Even in a six player, it must be that the Eradani and Orion must have decided to turtle, there were no significant battles, all the orbital and monolith tech made it out. I would think this could only have been an issue last turn anyway. If this is a common occurrence in your games, I would go and buy some kind of additional game pieces in a black cylindrical style. These might look cool anyway.
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Purple Paladin

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Joseph Courtight
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I say numbers are limited just like you can only build two dreadnaughts.
 
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Kelvin Lau
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Purple Paladin wrote:

ROFL EXACTLY THIS
 
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Don Schneider
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1) Eridani was sucking ass from start since mega bad luck with hex exploration, he had 4 orbitals himself.
2) I would like to see how you smart asses would try attacking someone with 2 dreadnoughts with 6 plasma missiles plus 2 cruisers with 4 plasma missiles in one hex... Thats what happened to Hegemony. It was the only chance for Descendants to defend them selves after losing few hexes to Hegemony. Hegemony had no other wormholes and wormhole generator appeared only in 5th turn!!! He could not go mid.
3)Machanema wanted to fight so much but he was totally cut out from everything, he had not a single wormhole connection (and no generator tech like i said).
4)Hydran (with his crappy spaceships) was doing his best to suppress Planta (also with crappy spaceships). They both had like 5-6 orbitals and 2-3 monoliths each (after the tech that gives resources per artifact hex)
Planta was in alliance with Eridani. Eridani actually came last and was worthless.

All you talk about fighting and attacking. I so would like to see how you attack everybody when it is 50-50% chance of losing. If you play with your girlfriends or under aged brothers then it figures that they suck ass and you can fight them. In our game everybody maintains extremely equal strengths at all times. If someone gets computer, his opponent gets shields, someone gets cannon, other gets hull, the one who is weakest snatches the only plasma missiles and can defend good against much stronger ships... WOULD you attack someone when it is 50-50% chance to lose and your whole game depends on that battle? Like if you attack and if you lose a ship or two then its gg for you because other guy will come back at you? Would you risk your entire game for 50%?
 
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Don Schneider
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kilgore wrote:
I guess it could be possible to provide downloadable tile images that you could print and glue on the blanks provided with the base game.


Thank you but no need i guess. I already scanned and printed them. Gonna glue on cardboard or something like that. Others can do that also...
 
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Daniel Hammond
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sur5al wrote:
Would you risk your entire game for 50%?


So I have a 50% chance of winning the game if I attack? Yes. For the amount that was spent on Orbitals everyone would have had enough ships to keep one player's fleet in check no matter how it was equipped. The one problem with Uberfleets, they can only be in 1 hex and the bigger they are the more actions it takes to move them. Also aggressive players tend to over-extend and leave themselves open to multiple fronts.

Orbitals take a resource that you can gain victory points with (monoliths/ships) and turn them into actions/science. The problem with that is in most cases the most effective use of those materials is the getting VPs, whereas actions and science are more a means to an end. I am not saying that orbitals can't be used well under certain circumstances, but more like a flip-side of plasma missiles (which help you win battles but cost too many actions to equip and move) orbitals cost you materials that could help you defend or attack.

Food for thought, in your game Don, who won? and how did the people with orbitals do? If those orbitals had been ships I think everyone wouldn't have felt so helpless against a military player.

Even if attacking early is dangerous round 9 is a freebie, where you won't get crushed for over-extending (unless you do it too early in the round).
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Eugenio -
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Staying in topic, never had any issues with Orbitals/Monoliths but we ran out of Positron Computer tiles in 6P games.
 
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Daniel Hammond
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Eu8L1ch wrote:
Staying in topic, never had any issues with Orbitals/Monoliths but we ran out of Positron Computer tiles in 6P games.


I believe there will be more upgrade tiles in the expansion, and Positron Computers were I believe the most requested (top 3 at least).
 
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Mathue Faulkner
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There have definitely been some smart ass comments in this thread that were unwarranted, but I still think your group could be a bit more aggressive. Running out of the tiles in a single game is one thing, but you stated that you've been running out of them semi-regularly, and expect to continue to do so. That's what is raising eyebrows and points to lack of aggression imo...

sur5al wrote:
1) Eridani was sucking ass from start since mega bad luck with hex exploration, he had 4 orbitals himself.

In general, I've found Orbitals to be a poor use of resources/actions. In the case of your Eridani, it may have been a better idea to research Plasma Cannons and Improved Hull, and then build 4 Cruisers instead of 4 Orbitals... Of course, I don't know what the exact situation was, but it definitely shouldn't be something that comes up every game.

sur5al wrote:
2) I would like to see how you smart asses would try attacking someone with 2 dreadnoughts with 6 plasma missiles plus 2 cruisers with 4 plasma missiles in one hex... Thats what happened to Hegemony. It was the only chance for Descendants to defend them selves after losing few hexes to Hegemony. Hegemony had no other wormholes and wormhole generator appeared only in 5th turn!!! He could not go mid.

2 Dreadnoughts with 6 PMs and 2 Cruisers with 4 PMs by the 5th turn?
Probably not impossible, but definitely not a regular occurrence....especially if everyone else is being at least mildly aggressive as they should be in those early rounds. That takes a lot of resources and a lot of actions. And to be quite honest, it isn't that hard to defend. If they have that many PMs, then they have zero computers...so on average, you'd hit 3.3 times for 6-8 damage. In other words, throw some Improved Hull on some Cruisers or Dreads, and take a few pot shots when they retreat.

And honestly, how does this relate to the discussion? Unless you're stating that as a reason that the Descendants decided to turtle...in which case, I'd argue that they could still leave openings to other races.

sur5al wrote:
3)Machanema wanted to fight so much but he was totally cut out from everything, he had not a single wormhole connection (and no generator tech like i said).

Why didn't he place the hexes so that he did connect?

sur5al wrote:
4)Hydran (with his crappy spaceships) was doing his best to suppress Planta (also with crappy spaceships). They both had like 5-6 orbitals and 2-3 monoliths each (after the tech that gives resources per artifact hex)
Planta was in alliance with Eridani. Eridani actually came last and was worthless.

If they both had crappy spaceships, then they both made the decision to turtle long before the end game. And it still doesn't explain why they're building Orbitals. My guess is that your group is WAY over valuing Orbitals....

Daniel already addressed the 50% comment, and I agree. In general, it's much better to build ships instead of Orbitals.
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Daniel Hammond
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mfaulk80 wrote:

Daniel already addressed the 50% comment, and I agree. In general, it's much better to build ships instead of Orbitals.


I agree with those comments except Eridani start with plasma cannons. More on the 50% in a six player game if player A is in the lead and I have a 50% combat situation against him and I go all in early in a turn, I pin his fleets and declare my intent, I OUGHT to get some help from everyone else who is also losing to player A. Stretch him and break him.
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James Motz
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mfaulk80 wrote:

Why didn't he place the hexes so that he did connect?


This is a great question! Using so many orbital / monolith tiles probably depends on this. Next game, try placing your hexes to connect to as many people as possible instead of trying to create "walls" to isolate yourself. You'll be surprised how many more options you'll have in the game than the other players who are trying to hide from everyone.

And as others pointed out, one massive fleet on one hex is surprisingly weak as far as winning the game is concerned. It's much better to just sidestep them and make them chase you around.

Usually Eclipse has multiple solutions to a problem. Sure you *could* try to match strength on strength. But there's usually something better, some sneaky way to make him regret spending so many actions on making a super-ship.
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Philip Morton
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My group valued orbitals highly after a few games where players with orbitals appeared to run away with the game. It's a fairly visible effect when the orbital player is taking numerous actions after everyone else has passed (and using them for scary things like scattering interceptors over your territory after you've passed and can't get your "virtual fleet" out except with the half-build reaction).

I know I personally tend towards less aggressive, and usually place my wormholes to avoid contact. I didn't consider the rest of my group particularly low on aggression, but maybe they are.

Last game, after having read the arguments against orbitals on these forums, I let the orbitals tech go and attacked my neighbor as soon as he spent materials on them. Sure enough, he couldn't do much about it; he didn't have the materials for a good defensive fleet and he didn't have the tech to match my ships (having spent it on orbitals). I didn't end up taking much territory because I was worried about a two-front war with some Orion dreadnoughts looming in the galactic center, but the theory was sound and I'm hoping it makes people more cautious about orbitals in the future.
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Don Schneider
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dlhammond wrote:
So I have a 50% chance of winning the game if I attack?

Not really, since others are turtle-ined in other side of map with monoliths...

dlhammond wrote:
Food for thought, in your game Don, who won? and how did the people with orbitals do? If those orbitals had been ships I think everyone wouldn't have felt so helpless against a military player.

I won with hydran. I think it is kinda retarded to be aggressive with them. In that game i MAXED out ALL 3 science tracks for the very first time (all thanks to orbitals), had 2 monoliths and snatched 2 more monoliths from planta at the 8 turn after geting generator. So i something like near 60 VP, Eridani came last with 25. Hegemony was second and had like 37. Others were between 25 and 35.

Mathue Faulkner wrote:
Running out of the tiles in a single game is one thing, but you stated that you've been running out of them semi-regularly, and expect to continue to do so.

We ran out in 2 games. Well planta, descendants and hydran always turtle-in. And they WILL win that way if others wont attack them.

Mathue Faulkner wrote:
In the case of your Eridani, it may have been a better idea to research Plasma Cannons and Improved Hull, and then build 4 Cruisers instead of 4 Orbitals...

He was geting 2 science points per turn and could do like 2 or 3 actions per turn (conserving money reasonably), so orbitals were much better strategical choice, since he was in alliance with planta at that point and closed other side to machanema. Like i said he had major disaster with exploration.

Mathue Faulkner wrote:
Why didn't he place the hexes so that he did connect?

lpl, who cares how he puts hexes. Others are cutting him out . Machanema was between eridani and descendants. eridani was afraid, wanted to get back into play so closed from him to save his hide. Descendants were already attacked by hegemony so they they also cut machema out. Moreover, they took first circle hex with ancients and cut out machanema from mid. Well one of major stupid factors was that wormhole generator appeared only in 7th turn i think.

Descendands miraculously staid in game because of missiles. (he was between machanema and hegemony) He found many ancients fast, but failed cut out hegemony, who started invading those ancients. Descendants lost 2 or 3 hexes until managed to get missiles and stop hegemony at the only available connection, their armies sit there for rest of the game with a couple of unsuccessful hegemony attacks and descendant raids where he comes shoots missiles and retreats.

Mathue Faulkner wrote:
If they both had crappy spaceships, then they both made the decision to turtle long before the end game. And it still doesn't explain why they're building Orbitals.

Of course they did. Do you seriously think that hydran and planta are better aggressors than economists? Haven't you seen posts where people complaining that planta is op if not attacked? Of course players use best aspects of their races. You might be forced to take different strategies depending on your exploration success, but in general turtled-in planta are hydran are better.

Also our players are more used to fighting with cards rather than dice.
We don't like leaving so much to share luck. Like i said we maintain equal strengths and it seems stupid to attack someone when you have same amount of ships, damage output, hull strength and the whole outcome of the battle (and maybe even of your game) depends on who is going to roll 6 more often...

You also miss understand that we prefer orbital to everything else. Planta usually steals good hexes fast, others getting empty artifacts. What will you do if you are getting 2 research points per turn??? And there are no connections or easy targets to steal someone's hexes. Of course you gonna build orbital as it is awesome long term investment.
 
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Mathue Faulkner
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Hydran play very well as an aggressive race. They can still research just as much if they're aggressive. Why research all of that great tech if you're not going to put it to use?

The Descendants also play well as an aggressive race.

I still think that the Eridani made a strategical error by going for orbitals instead of Improved Hull and build some ships, especially since they start with PCs. They eliminated themselves from the game early by not going after the Planta. They should have broken their alliance and gone after some of those hexes....much more efficient way of boosting their economy. 2 Research per turn is enough to do some damage, especially since they start with PCs.

Planta is the only race that really should turtle. Other races can play either direction just fine (well, Eridani and Hegemony should usually be aggressive).
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Narek Der-Sahakian
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I dont know if this has been asked/answered yet in this thread and I'm assuming you're playing correctly but just want to make sure. Are you aware of the limit of 1 orbital and 1 monolith per hex?
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Tim Driedger
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Are you playing with all the rules? Eg, they cost 10 materials, you can only have 1 per hex, each player needs the monolith tech to build them and the game only lasts 9 turns.

If so, I would really like to have a game with you guys... I have a feeling I would end up with a lot of monoliths!
 
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Kelvin Lau
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it would be great if some of your group members show up on vassel announcing your time of a particular online. we would like to play you. pretty sure some are interested.
 
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