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Subject: Kickstarter coming to the UK rss

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Sam Mercer
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For all my fellow Brit designers - by August, Kickstarter will open up their services to the UK

AtomPunk is one step closer! How much is postage to the US nowadays?
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Andrew Rowse
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Thanks for sharing the news Sam!

Having just finished the fund-raising side of my Indiegogo project, I'm already planning the post-mortem report that I'll be posting on BGG. I'm not going to have many positive things to say about Indiegogo. It's an okay service, but Kickstarter really is better in almost every conceivable way.

yuk
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Dicky P
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Can't decide if this is good news or not.....devil
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Steve K
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I do wonder how well Kickstarter's "your contract is with someone else" approach fits in with EU distance selling regulations. Doubtless I'll end up reading about it in the papers at some point.
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Tristan Hall
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Gloom of Kilforth reprint Kickstarter Sept 29-Oct 31
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Gloom of Kilforth reprint Kickstarter Sept 29-Oct 31
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KAndrw wrote:
Thanks for sharing the news Sam!

Having just finished the fund-raising side of my Indiegogo project, I'm already planning the post-mortem report that I'll be posting on BGG. I'm not going to have many positive things to say about Indiegogo. It's an okay service, but Kickstarter really is better in almost every conceivable way.

yuk



I'm sorry to hear that Andrew, but I look forward to reading your thoughts on the subject.
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Jake Staines
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SteveK2 wrote:
I do wonder how well Kickstarter's "your contract is with someone else" approach fits in with EU distance selling regulations. Doubtless I'll end up reading about it in the papers at some point.


I don't doubt that you'll be reading about it in the papers sooner or later anyway, but I don't see personally how those two things have any more bearing on one another than any other obligation of the project owner. Your contract will be with the guy running the Kickstarter project, and any obligations under distance selling laws will fall upon his shoulders, surely?

You're giving money to the project, and in turn expect some reward in consideration, which to my limited understanding fulfils the requirements to be considered a contract of sale.




The interesting case to me is where:

- a project offers for £100 the reward of getting product X early
- after the pre-orders are all fulfilled, X will go on sale for £70 + £10 shipping
- a user donates £150 to the project, selecting the £100 reward
- when X arrives, the user elects to exercise his right to return it for a refund

How much refund is the user entitled to?

My gut says £90, on the grounds that the shipping isn't refundable, the product 'cost' £100 including shipping when he bought it, and shipping costs have been established at £10. But I could see people making arguments for £70, £100, £150 or £0!




(Any UK contract lawyers on BGG? ;-)
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Steve K
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Bichatse wrote:
You're giving money to the project, and in turn expect some reward in consideration, which to my limited understanding fulfils the requirements to be considered a contract of sale.


I'm not a lawyer, but (as a simple example) I believe the law requires suppliers to provide a name and physical address. Kickstarter doesn't require this.

I'm not saying things are impossible - but their UK/EU lawyers might make a number of suggestions over how their website (or operations) might need to change to reflect different consumer law or common practises.

At the very least, I suspect they'll have to change their cancellation policies from "discouraged, but if you must..." to "you have a right to cancel at any time, up to 14 days after delivery" - and they'll also need to get people starting projects to acknowledge their duties about this.
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Steve K
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Bichatse wrote:
How much refund is the user entitled to?


I believe the consumer is entitled to everything he paid: product costs, delivery costs, Kickstarter charges, Paypal charges - the supplier has to eat them all.

Return shipping costs aren't included unless the goods are faulty. No restocking or admin charges may be made.

And rejection of goods is unconditional - there's no need to claim they're faulty - you can just say you've changed your mind.
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Jake Staines
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SteveK2 wrote:

I believe the consumer is entitled to everything he paid: product costs, delivery costs, Kickstarter charges, Paypal charges - the supplier has to eat them all.


OK, but at the very least - the supplier is asking for £100 for item X and the customer paid £150. Kickstarter also allows people to essentially donate money to a project with no reward; why should the excess £50 not be considered a donation instead of a purchase price? The distance selling regulations only cover contracts of sale, not donations or other non-sale transfers of money.
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Steve K
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I agree - its sometimes (often?) not a clear sale process.

All I'm saying is that the UK/EU operates differently to the US, and there are probably issues to be dealt with. Any required changes will presumably have been factored in for the UK launch.
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