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Subject: Aside from the HH, Is the 2nd edition a fun game or not. rss

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Oliver
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For someone who has just purchased the 2nd edition and has not yet opened it, is this a good game or not. Please not that i could care less about the halifax hammer.
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Warren Smith
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If you don't care about the HH, then this is a superb game. One of the best! The deckbuilding feels like it really creates a delay between the old world and the new as you wait for for military, settlers, etc. to arrive. The tension is awesome when you can see what both players are planning to do, but they have to wait for the right moment to execute. The map gives lots of room to explore. Absolutely fantastic. Again, this is all still possible only if you ignore HH.
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Tom
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Despite the dominant strategy, this is definitely a fantastic game and well worth the purchase. Especially if you like abstract mechanics intelligently imitating game's reality (what Warren described above).

If you don't want to "stumble upon" the HH under 2nd edition rules, I'd suggest to add a small tweak to the rules, which makes the HH not an obvious and a too easy strategy (I think it's not yet proven that with this tweak the game is still broken - that said, it's probably not enough to call the game fixed, though):
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Governor cannot be used on starting locations

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Tim Seitz
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I consider it a "must play" game for a number of reasons.
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Kent Reuber
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I think it's an excellent game. It gives you the deck building goodness of Dominion but with a context.
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Ken Dilloo
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Absolutely, as stated eloquently above. Just stay out of the forums. It may take a few plays to put all the pieces together, of HH, if at all; and many more to perfect it. It still takes a bit of skill to run it right.

Great game, well with the purchase, HH or no HH.
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Oliver
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Thanks guys i just brought it home from cool stuff south and the first positive look from the gf has been the cherry on top of all your comments!!
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Bill Eldard
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solkan1 wrote:
Despite the dominant strategy, this is definitely a fantastic game and well worth the purchase. Especially if you like abstract mechanics intelligently imitating game's reality (what Warren described above).

If you don't want to "stumble upon" the HH under 2nd edition rules, I'd suggest to add a small tweak to the rules, which makes the HH not an obvious and a too easy strategy (I think it's not yet proven that with this tweak the game is still broken - that said, it's probably not enough to call the game fixed, though):
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Governor cannot be used on starting locations



That's a great suggestion, Tom. I'm surprised that Wallace didn't include it in the changes he made for the 2nd edition.

Knowing the principle behind HH and even listening to a 90 minute podcast in which the opening moves were explained by a guy with over 600 games played and 100% wins as the British in the 2nd Edition, I can't make it work before the French defenses are installed.

Overall, I've owned this game for four months and I'm still excited about it. It's a very innovative design, and I'm sure it has already inspired other designers to apply the deck-building/board strategy mechanic to other historical situations -- especially multiplayer.
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Tom
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The idea was initially suggested by the user Noahboa. Tim some time ago said it doesn't change the fact that HH is still a dominant strategy, but I think that while for a player who knows HH this may not be enough, for a beginning player it will decrease the probability of putting the whole strategy together with a non-extensive playing - or will slow down the process of it, at least, which in my opinion is desirable.

I've played on Yucata a dozen or so games with this rule and some additional minor rules changes and for now it works for me, i.e. as the British I win against weaker players and lose against better ones.
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Gavan Brown
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N S.
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solkan1 wrote:
The idea was initially suggested by the user Noahboa. Tim some time ago said it doesn't change the fact that HH is still a dominant strategy, but I think that while for a player who knows HH this may not be enough, for a beginning player it will decrease the probability of putting the whole strategy together with a non-extensive playing - or will slow down the process of it, at least, which in my opinion is desirable.

I've played on Yucata a dozen or so games with this rule and some additional minor rules changes and for now it works for me, i.e. as the British I win against weaker players and lose against better ones.


I wasn't the first to suggest it, but I guess I was probably the first to test it extensively.
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Charlie Theel
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Quote:
Aside from the HH, Is the 2nd edition a fun game or not.


This is like saying:
"Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, did you enjoy the play?"
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Jay Sachs
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charlest wrote:
Quote:
Aside from the HH, Is the 2nd edition a fun game or not.


This is like saying:
"Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, did you enjoy the play?"


Don't mind him. The game burned down his house and salted his fields.
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Matt
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@Charles: +1

I thought the game was cool the first few times I played. I wound up ebaying it. Partly because HH is broken. Largely b/c of Wallace's dismissal of its flaw. I'm shocked the second edition doesn't fix the game.

Am not surprised to see it continue to slide in ratings.
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Richard Young
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Martin didn't exactly dismiss the issue - he approved the 2nd edition changes (based it appears from input here as well as his own estimate of the situation) and offered that changing anything more radical would involve the development of an entirely different scenario than the one he intended. Like The Alamo (only not as bad), the current scenario is asymmetric and he wasn't interested in starting from square zero and designing what would be, to him, a brand new game. That's his prerogative. He has a track record of moving on from games he delivered unless it be to evolve a game system (the rail games for example). Mythopia appears to be such an evolution and I will be interested so see what he has done with the concept in a multi-player game design where maintaining some "historicity of theme" is not an issue.

In any event, the 2nd edition helps to stave off the inevitability of the "HH," at least to all but top level experts, and for most casual gamers can represent an interesting and tension filled game - truth be told there wasn't all that much wrong with the first edition for that matter, except to a select few, until the tempest got all frothy. The ratings will do what they do here on the Geek (mostly driven by group-think) and I don't pay all that much attention to what is happening with them given the on-line TITP that has been going on. No game is perfect - this one is just fine for most of us.

For those still convinced that the game is broken, it is going to WBC this year. The good folk at WBC are not doofii in the habit of adopting broken games for their tournament, and I look forward to seeing what the WBC rulebook will look like.



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Tim Seitz
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Bubslug wrote:
For those still convinced that the game is broken, it is going to WBC this year. The good folk at WBC are not doofii in the habit of adopting broken games for their tournament, and I look forward to seeing what the WBC rulebook will look like.

It will, by necessity, be a different game. You sound like a denier, but you will see: The game is broken. They will have to alter the rules to make it playable.*

* I am pretty sure I know how they plan to do it.
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Ken Dilloo
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out4blood wrote:
Bubslug wrote:
For those still convinced that the game is broken, it is going to WBC this year. The good folk at WBC are not doofii in the habit of adopting broken games for their tournament, and I look forward to seeing what the WBC rulebook will look like.

It will, by necessity, be a different game. You sound like a denier, but you will see: The game is broken. They will have to alter the rules to make it playable.*

* I am pretty sure I know how they plan to do it.


Roachambo to see who plays the Brits?

Robert Smith might give you a run for your money!
 
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Tim Seitz
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bigloo33 wrote:
out4blood wrote:
Bubslug wrote:
For those still convinced that the game is broken, it is going to WBC this year. The good folk at WBC are not doofii in the habit of adopting broken games for their tournament, and I look forward to seeing what the WBC rulebook will look like.

It will, by necessity, be a different game. You sound like a denier, but you will see: The game is broken. They will have to alter the rules to make it playable.*

* I am pretty sure I know how they plan to do it.


Roachambo to see who plays the Brits?

Robert Smith might give you a run for your money!

My win rate with French is pretty high too, you know.
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Oliver
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Thanks guys for your help. I kind of stopped caring after the first mention of win rates.
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Matt
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Bubslug wrote:
For those still convinced that the game is broken, it is going to WBC this year. The good folk at WBC are not doofii in the habit of adopting broken games for their tournament, and I look forward to seeing what the WBC rulebook will look like.


Riiiight. Because it's going to be at the tables at WBC it is, obviously, not broken. Sorry, just because a committee votes on having a competition for a game does not absolve it. I'll give good odds that there will be heavy bidding to play the British.
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Tom
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Will WBC rules for AFAoS be available on the Internet?
If anyone's goint for the tournament, please don't forget to report on BGG how they changed the rules and what was the outcome of the changes.
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Oliver
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Is there anyway to delete a thread?
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James W
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OliverOil wrote:
Is there anyway to delete a thread?


Why would you want to?
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Tim Seitz
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He doesn't want to degrade the awesomeness of his Rampage avatar with too much exposure.
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