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Subject: Multiple powers - Lunatic and Fungus or Void or others rss

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Will Yum
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1) If you are both Lunatic and Fungus and you ally against yourself, do you attach to your own losing tokens?

2) If you are both Lunatic and Void and you ally against yourself, do you take your own losing tokens out of the game?

3) In general, if you are Lunatic and another power, do you affect your own tokens or do you have a choice about the activation?

We voted:

1) You cannot attach to yourself. Like regular cells, you can recognize your own tokens and do not adhere to them.

2) You have to take your own tokens out of the game since Void is mandatory.

3) We were not sure.
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Roberta Yang
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1) ...wow, that's weird. How would you even distinguish regular ships (that you've stacked on top of each other) from an actual Fungoid Stack (of your own ships)? As written, I think you would adhere to yourself, but I think "you can't, that's silly" is a good house-rule.

2) If your Main Player side wins, you will remove your own tokens. If the side you allied with wins, you won't because Void doesn't work as an ally.

3) In general, you affect your own tokens. Fungus is just weird because I can't see how to keep track of real stacks.
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Just a Bill
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No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
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I agree with all of Roberta's answers, including the idea that Fungolunatic probably should not be allowed to capture his own ships. Here's my bipolar thinking on that:

First, I don't see a problem with the physical stacking aspect. Stacking is required for the use of Fungus' power, but merely an optional convenience in pretty much all other situations. (I've played games where I was the only player who stacked his own ships.) So the first time Fungolunatic were to capture any of his own ships, he would simply break down any of his other "convenience stacks" that weren't actually fungoid stacks and everything would be fine. (Even so, in most cases the fungoid stacks would be identified by the presence of ships of the other losing players, unless Fungolunatic had won as the offense after allying against himself in an encounter in which the defense had no other defensive allies and no ships on his home planet.)

Second, and by "second" I mean however, I think there should be a general rule that you can never capture your own ships. Subfirst, because it doesn't really make story sense, and subsecond, because I've fooled around with a lot of homebrew powers that capture ships for various reasons, and some of them would be abusive if you could capture your own ships. I tend to believe that, sooner or later, such a rule will be needed.
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Roberta Yang
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If you're the Lunatic, Fungus, and Symbiote, you can use Super Symbiote to free your captured ships from yourself. whistle

A general rule against capturing your own ships sounds good. And self-capturing could come up even without getting into multiple powers per player - just throw the Lunatic into the Wild Fungus.
 
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Just a Bill
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No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
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Here's another weird single-power scenario:

Imagine you're Lunatic on defense, you hold Wild Fungus, and the It's Full of Stars... hazard is in effect. You could send, say, 11 ships to oppose yourself and if you win, you ring your own 11 ships plus (let's say) the 4 of your opponent around your system for a +15 on all defensive home encounters. Of course, you had to defeat a sizable armada to pull it off, but there are plenty of ways to make that happen.

You could do it without the hazard card if you were also Amoeba, but that would require something like Precursor Seed, Wild Chrysalis, or unofficial multi-power play.

But now I'm just getting silly.
 
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Roberta Yang
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It's Full of Stars says the normal ship limit applies, doesn't it? And since Amoeba is normally Main Player-only, you'd need its Super flare to use it for an alliance.
 
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Just a Bill
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No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
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Oops, quite right on both counts. Such clueless oversights ... must mean it's time for me to brush my teeth, put on my tin-foil hat, and get some sleep.
 
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Greg Filpus
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When other game effects refer to the number of ships you "had in the encounter," does that count all the sides you're on? For instance, if Bully beats Lunatic, does he get to choose losing ships for every ship Lunatic had on both sides?
 
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Jordan S.
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GregF wrote:
When other game effects refer to the number of ships you "had in the encounter," does that count all the sides you're on? For instance, if Bully beats Lunatic, does he get to choose losing ships for every ship Lunatic had on both sides?


I would presume the answer is "yes". Bully doesn't care that Lunatic was allying against himself and Bully still only forces Lunatic to lose the number of ships that he had on Defense anyway, so it would ultimately have virtually no impact on Lunatic at all.

Any other power that references "the number of ship you have/had in the encounter" (not thinking of any specific powers at the moment) wouldn't care where in the encounter your ships are, just how many of your player color were in the encounter.
 
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Just a Bill
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No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
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Webhead123 wrote:
I would presume the answer is "yes". Bully doesn't care that Lunatic was allying against himself and Bully still only forces Lunatic to lose the number of ships that he had on Defense anyway

You seem to say "yes" and then "no". I think it's "no".

Technically, there is an argument to be made that Bully as written appears to change the number of ships Lunatic must lose, increasing it from the number he would normally have lost to the number he "had in the encounter". However, interpreting the text that literally makes it an awkward read, and I think it's pretty clear from context that was not the intent: what Bully has really been trying to say all along (since published by Eon) is "he still loses the same number he was supposed to lose, but you pick where they come from".

Lunatic is not the only game effect that causes the number of ships a losing player should lose to be different from the number he has in the encounter. Spiff comes to mind as an easy example: Spiff brings 4, loses spectacularly, crash-lands 1, and should lose the remaining 3 to the warp. I doubt we want to say that Bully still gets to pick 4 to send to the warp. (Other examples could include Sting and Skeptic.)

Basically, the text is internally conflicted: it is saying the opponent loses the same number of ships, but also saying he loses the number he had in the encounter. Usually these will track together, but not always. In resolving the conflict, it seems clear that the former is the key word while the latter is one of the all-too-common redundancies that leads to trouble when it turns out not to be redundant after all.

Here's part of the actual text:
As a main player, after winning an encounter in which both players revealed attack cards, you may use this power to choose which ships your opponent must lose. Your opponent loses the same number of ships he or she had in the encounter, but you take them from anywhere.


And here's what I think it really means:
As a main player, after winning an encounter in which both players revealed attack cards, you may use this power to choose which ships your opponent must lose. Your opponent still loses the same number of ships he or she had in the encounter, but you take them from anywhere.
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Jordan S.
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Bill Martinson wrote:
You seem to say "yes" and then "no". I think it's "no".


Very poor wording on my part. Apologies. I must have been tired.

Bill Martinson wrote:
...what Bully has really been trying to say...is "he still loses the same number he was supposed to lose, but you pick where they come from".


Agreed. As only defending ships are sent to the Warp as the result of a successful encounter, Lunatic would only lose those such ships. Bully then picks that number of ships from any of Lunatic's colonies (and/or from Lunatic's ships on the Hyperspace Gate) and sends them to the Warp.

As you say, semantics might form a breeding ground for arguing against that point but the intent is pretty clear on how Bully is supposed to work.
 
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