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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » General

Subject: So who here has gotten into "knocked out" pummeling? rss

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Derrek McNab
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This is where all the heroes (usually when playing with 2 heroes) have been knocked out in one turn.

Therefore each player must spend a whole turn getting up.

If surrounded by monsters, it is likely to take both of knock them both out again.

So far this has only happened when I was overlording against 2 heroes in Fat Goblin e2.

However there was only about two turns left before Splig escaped, so they were okay with trying once more to see if they could squeeze in at least one hit.



Has this happened to anyone else? How far into the encounter were you when it happened?

Should it be considered a victory for the overlord should all heroes be knocked out for a turn or two?

For the campaign, should the heroes get a single item at the start that is only usable once in the campaign where all heroes can stand for only 1 action?
 
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Christopher Scatliff
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The only time this happened to us was in the exact same scenario. The open group (shadow dragon) and cave spiders managed to get the double knock out (only two heroes). This gave Splig the window he needed to double move past them with his bodyguards to secure the win. It helped a lot, of course, that Frederick was the first prisoner interrogated which allowed the goblins to get into position to make their break.
 
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Derrek McNab
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lucky you, he was my last one found, and my groups were just cave spiders and zombies.
 
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Christopher Scatliff
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kerred wrote:
Should it be considered a victory for the overlord should all heroes be knocked out for a turn or two?

For the campaign, should the heroes get a single item at the start that is only usable once in the campaign where all heroes can stand for only 1 action?

I don't think it needs to be considered a victory. Most of them time, it will just become one of its own accord due to the huge advantage that gives him.

For the campaign, a single failure like that can be overcome. Take your lumps and do better next quest.
 
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Derrek McNab
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If I was a hero that would be fine.

But my overall concern is the enjoyment in the heroes, since I will be teaching a lot of new players. I try to being the challenge and excitement, but afraid of getting in a situation where it is just down to a roll of the dice for big health and a few missed roles. I would hate any of them to do boring things like stand up constantly and watch me strike right back.

Of course the simplest way is I simply take my turns very fast, so they do not have to sit there and wait for me
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Clayton Helme
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I'm pretty sure that the overlord wins if all heroes are knocked out at the same time, but maybe that is not what you are referring to...
 
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Derrek McNab
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^ That I didn't know, is there something in the rules about it that I missed?
 
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Clayton Helme
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My mistake, or at least I can't find it in the rulebook. I just thought I heard that somewhere that was one way for the overlord to win, But I guess it isn't. Maybe it's just a leftover thought from 1st edition.
 
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Derrek McNab
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In the quest guide I have read, I don't recall any victory involving heroes being knocked out.

Except the finale
Spoiler (click to reveal)
where if a hero is knocked out in the last encounter, it is removed from the board completely
 
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Andy Mills
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Crimson_Phoenix wrote:
My mistake, or at least I can't find it in the rulebook. I just thought I heard that somewhere that was one way for the overlord to win, But I guess it isn't. Maybe it's just a leftover thought from 1st edition.


Yeah, this isn't in the rules generally for 2nd ed. I can't speak to the win conditions of any particular quest.
 
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Derrek McNab
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No quest has any knock out victory conditions for the overlord.

which I like, since the Overlord has to balance his decisions on what to attack.
 
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Justin Smith

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Crimson_Phoenix wrote:
My mistake, or at least I can't find it in the rulebook. I just thought I heard that somewhere that was one way for the overlord to win, But I guess it isn't. Maybe it's just a leftover thought from 1st edition.


It is just very difficult for the heroes to recover from.

Everyone has to pick themselves up, that is essentially a completely lost turn for the entire team with everyone very low on health afterwards.

And the overlord generally spawns more monsters to beat them harder (in most scenarios) and draws a plethora of cards.

thinking about this, I would hope an overlord wouldn't use this to farm heroes for massive numbers of cards in an encounter one and lay waste in the second half with them.
 
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Jeremy Lennert
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I've been concerned about exactly this sort of situation ever since I read about the knock-out system in one of the early previews, but I haven't actually played yet, so I don't know how prominent it will actually be.
 
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Sylvain BONNEAU
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Draffut wrote:
thinking about this, I would hope an overlord wouldn't use this to farm heroes for massive numbers of cards in an encounter one and lay waste in the second half with them.


Read the "NDA lifted" thread: in this early session report, the OP explains his Overlord's strategy, which includes herding a huge hand of cards in 1st encounter to easily win 2nd encounter.

--
Buggy
 
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Derrek McNab
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Oh, I didn't think about 2nd encounter card hoarding.

Has that been playtested? If so, how effective has it been?
 
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Kelly Overholser
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It's possible, but keep in mind that heroes carry over wounds to the next encounter as well, plus there's some pretty nice benefits (and the heroes need to spend a lot of time stalling for the overlord to get more cards). If the overlord doesn't do much to harass the heroes in the first encounter and lets them win, it's pretty possible that even with a hand full of cards, the heroes will still trounce the second encounter.
 
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Proto Persona
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Sethala wrote:
It's possible, but keep in mind that heroes carry over wounds to the next encounter as well, plus there's some pretty nice benefits (and the heroes need to spend a lot of time stalling for the overlord to get more cards). If the overlord doesn't do much to harass the heroes in the first encounter and lets them win, it's pretty possible that even with a hand full of cards, the heroes will still trounce the second encounter.

I think they are talking more about the OL has the heroes in a knockdown cycle at the end of the 1st encounter and begins stalling for more cards to open encounter 2 with. Instead of winning right away the OL keeps knocking the hero(es) out to farm cards.
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Derrek McNab
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well, either way.

But I was just thinking of an overlord just letting the heroes win encounter I without playing anything all the time. Then unleashing everything on encounter II all the time.

Aside from repetitive and not sounding like much fun, I wonder if that strategy would be useful every time.

 
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Paul Harper
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Uhg. I was going to order my copy tonight, but, I think I will wait to see how this pans out. This sounds horrid, even if it only happens 1 outa 5 quests.

Players are under time pressure due to dwindling HP and Overlord respawning monsters & card draws. Sounds like OL needs to have time driver also to balance it out. Game ends when last OL card is drawn?

For those that have played, how many times have you seen the OL recycle his deck in an encounter?
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Kelly Overholser
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Proto Persona wrote:
Sethala wrote:
It's possible, but keep in mind that heroes carry over wounds to the next encounter as well, plus there's some pretty nice benefits (and the heroes need to spend a lot of time stalling for the overlord to get more cards). If the overlord doesn't do much to harass the heroes in the first encounter and lets them win, it's pretty possible that even with a hand full of cards, the heroes will still trounce the second encounter.

I think they are talking more about the OL has the heroes in a knockdown cycle at the end of the 1st encounter and begins stalling for more cards to open encounter 2 with. Instead of winning right away the OL keeps knocking the hero(es) out to farm cards.


If the heroes let that happen, I'd say it should mean an Overlord win. Even if the Overlord doesn't just farm cards though, it means the heroes will start the next encounter with very little HP and at a disadvantage from failing encounter 1.

Plus, don't forget that the Overlord will farm cards very quickly, since he gets an extra one for each hero knocked out. And if the hero turn is just passing the red dice around and standing up before getting knocked down again, it'll go back to the overlord turn again very fast.
 
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Proto Persona
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Sethala wrote:
Proto Persona wrote:
Sethala wrote:
It's possible, but keep in mind that heroes carry over wounds to the next encounter as well, plus there's some pretty nice benefits (and the heroes need to spend a lot of time stalling for the overlord to get more cards). If the overlord doesn't do much to harass the heroes in the first encounter and lets them win, it's pretty possible that even with a hand full of cards, the heroes will still trounce the second encounter.

I think they are talking more about the OL has the heroes in a knockdown cycle at the end of the 1st encounter and begins stalling for more cards to open encounter 2 with. Instead of winning right away the OL keeps knocking the hero(es) out to farm cards.


If the heroes let that happen, I'd say it should mean an Overlord win. Even if the Overlord doesn't just farm cards though, it means the heroes will start the next encounter with very little HP and at a disadvantage from failing encounter 1.

Plus, don't forget that the Overlord will farm cards very quickly, since he gets an extra one for each hero knocked out. And if the hero turn is just passing the red dice around and standing up before getting knocked down again, it'll go back to the overlord turn again very fast.

The question on my mind is more what if the heroes can't prevent it? Shnar's experience means it's possible that certain party setups can be left helpless to stop the OL from wearing them down and having his way with the heroes. I kinda agree with Shnar that if you are required to bring a disciple in every party just to prevent this then that's gonna suck. Plus somebody may get stuck playing the role they didn't want just to have a chance. That's never fun.

I'm hoping more experience with the game will lead to the meta-tactics needed to make an offensively centered party like Shnar's work without a healer. If not then it may simply be that one shot adventures as outlined in the book don't work with starter heroes and epic rules will be needed in every single quest play through. It might be a balance issue that will need adjusted with more feedback. Too early to call right now though.
 
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Justin Smith

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Sethala wrote:
Proto Persona wrote:
Sethala wrote:
It's possible, but keep in mind that heroes carry over wounds to the next encounter as well, plus there's some pretty nice benefits (and the heroes need to spend a lot of time stalling for the overlord to get more cards). If the overlord doesn't do much to harass the heroes in the first encounter and lets them win, it's pretty possible that even with a hand full of cards, the heroes will still trounce the second encounter.

I think they are talking more about the OL has the heroes in a knockdown cycle at the end of the 1st encounter and begins stalling for more cards to open encounter 2 with. Instead of winning right away the OL keeps knocking the hero(es) out to farm cards.


If the heroes let that happen, I'd say it should mean an Overlord win. Even if the Overlord doesn't just farm cards though, it means the heroes will start the next encounter with very little HP and at a disadvantage from failing encounter 1.

Plus, don't forget that the Overlord will farm cards very quickly, since he gets an extra one for each hero knocked out. And if the hero turn is just passing the red dice around and standing up before getting knocked down again, it'll go back to the overlord turn again very fast.


So, if the Heroes do well in encounter 1 then encounter 2 should start with them having the bonuses from their victory.

But if the OL does well in the first level, he should get every encounter bonus, a full hand of 15 overlord cards, heroes with no health, and a full lineup of new full health critters?

That doesn't sound like how it 'should be' at all.
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Andy Mills
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Helznicht wrote:

For those that have played, how many times have you seen the OL recycle his deck in an encounter?


Most of the time, I didn't get through my deck. I think I reshuffled once in the 3 quests I did (which, granted, is not a large sample size).
 
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Kelly Overholser
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Draffut wrote:
Sethala wrote:
Proto Persona wrote:
Sethala wrote:
It's possible, but keep in mind that heroes carry over wounds to the next encounter as well, plus there's some pretty nice benefits (and the heroes need to spend a lot of time stalling for the overlord to get more cards). If the overlord doesn't do much to harass the heroes in the first encounter and lets them win, it's pretty possible that even with a hand full of cards, the heroes will still trounce the second encounter.

I think they are talking more about the OL has the heroes in a knockdown cycle at the end of the 1st encounter and begins stalling for more cards to open encounter 2 with. Instead of winning right away the OL keeps knocking the hero(es) out to farm cards.


If the heroes let that happen, I'd say it should mean an Overlord win. Even if the Overlord doesn't just farm cards though, it means the heroes will start the next encounter with very little HP and at a disadvantage from failing encounter 1.

Plus, don't forget that the Overlord will farm cards very quickly, since he gets an extra one for each hero knocked out. And if the hero turn is just passing the red dice around and standing up before getting knocked down again, it'll go back to the overlord turn again very fast.


So, if the Heroes do well in encounter 1 then encounter 2 should start with them having the bonuses from their victory.

But if the OL does well in the first level, he should get every encounter bonus, a full hand of 15 overlord cards, heroes with no health, and a full lineup of new full health critters?

That doesn't sound like how it 'should be' at all.


There's a difference between "doing good and getting a few bonuses for the next quest" and "trouncing the heroes so bad that all they can do is stand up and get knocked down again". Admittedly I don't have a lot of plays under my belt yet, but it seems that if the overlord wins encounter 1, it'll be by just barely outplaying the heroes.

I'll also say that how much damage the heroes have to carry over to the next quest is pretty big. If they win the first encounter with hardly a scratch, they can charge right in to the second encounter without any stop, and completely trounce the Overlord. In the Death on the Wing quest I played, even though I stalled the heroes out long enough to get almost my entire deck in my hand, it wasn't enough to come anywhere close to winning the second encounter because the heroes were also fully healed up and able to slaughter my monsters without a problem. Admittedly I could have done better if I hadn't made a few early mistakes in the second encounter, but even if I played perfectly, heroes sitting at full HP are pretty tough to kill quickly.
 
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The Galaxy is Just Packed!
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manydills wrote:
Helznicht wrote:

For those that have played, how many times have you seen the OL recycle his deck in an encounter?


Most of the time, I didn't get through my deck. I think I reshuffled once in the 3 quests I did (which, granted, is not a large sample size).


I've never done it yet.
 
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