Recommend
4 
 Thumb up
 Hide
12 Posts

Samurai Battles» Forums » Rules

Subject: [AoT] before play questions rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: Faq [+] SB [+] AOT [+] [View All]
Bartosz Popow
Poland
Gdynia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Note: These are questions to Art of Tactic rules.

1. Page 5. Encounters. Ok, so I read that if both units were to enter the same hex, they shall basically move back one hex and stop over there. However if those units moved from opposite directions it would eventually put them a hex away from each other and there wouldn't even be a melee combat between them, do I understand correct?

2. Page 6. Last example in the lower right corner. How come the 6-figure spearmen have an attack value of 25? Shouldn't they have 24, just like the cavalry? What happens if there's a tie in Attack Values?

3. I finally don't understand the concept of flank and rear attack. First example on page 7 says that unit 4 is making a flank attack (even though it is the opposite of unit's 3 front side attack). Whereas second example on the same page shows that (at least I understand it so) there are always up to 2 front side attacks, always 2 flanks and up to 2 rears - where both rears are opposite to respective front side attacks. Is there an error in first example? Or do I have the concept completely mixed up?

4. Page 7 says that a unit can only attack a unit that it is facing. Later it says that it cannot attack units that are flanking or from the rear (obvious). I know it is not a contradiction, but I just want to make sure, that if two units attack one unit from a front side, the defending one can only attack the one it is directly facing, while it CANNOT attack the other front side attacking unit. Is that correct?

5. Page 7. Continuing combat. Let's say there are two units attacking one unit, one from the front, the other from the rear. The rear attacking unit received an Assault order last round and benefited (modifiers) from it. However when it continues combat on the next round, the modifiers are gone, right? I'm asking, because the rulebook says "Only units with Assault orders can benefit from these bonuses" as well as "Any unit that is engaged in melee at the beginning of the turn (...) must continue to fight in melee combat. Do not issue any order to these units.".

Well, that's it for now. I don't want to flood with too many questions. Maybe answers to the above will clear any further doubts.

Edit, more questions.

6. Page 10. Fire and retreat. First of all, I understand it only works if an enemy unit performs an Assault, right? Or does it work for March and Run as well? How soon can I fire? Even if an attacking cavalry unit is 4 hexes away? The rulebook says "If an enemy attacks this unit through its Defense Zone". Ok, but my ranged units cannot fire at an adjacent hex and what now? Or did they mean by that that I see that in a couple of moves my unit "would be attacked" through its Defense Zone?

7. Page 11. Retreat. Quote: "The order is only executed if your unit is not destroyed or Put To Flight during melee combat this turn." How is that possible when move is executed first (point 3) and then melee combat (point 5)? From what I understand, retreating unit will simply retreat from the battle and nothing happens, right? The enemy unit didn't receive any order, so it just stays and does nothing for the turn? I think I just don't see something here.

8. Page 11. Ambush. Quote: "If an enemy unit enters the Defense Zone of the hidden unit, the units are engaged in melee. The hidden unit immediately attacks with a +3 Attack value bonus. The enemy unit does not get to respond to these attacks this turn".
When they say "immediately" does it mean immediately? Like right now, outside of melee combat step? If yes, is there a regular melee afterwards as well? If yes, can an enemy unit respond to it?
Or is it just a bad usage of a word "immediately" and I should interpret it as "The units are engaged in combat. In melee combat step only the unit that was in ambush performs its attacks with a +3 modifier"?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stevenson Junior
Czech Republic
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
BartP wrote:
Note: These are questions to Art of Tactic rules.
1. Page 5. Encounters. Ok, so I read that if both units were to enter the same hex, they shall basically move back one hex and stop over there. However if those units moved from opposite directions it would eventually put them a hex away from each other and there wouldn't even be a melee combat between them, do I understand correct?


I would be interested to know the answer as well, but in Barbarossa 1941 rules I saw units remaining 1 hex apart as they were.

BartP wrote:

2. Page 6. Last example in the lower right corner. How come the 6-figure spearmen have an attack value of 25? Shouldn't they have 24, just like the cavalry? What happens if there's a tie in Attack Values?


I had the same confusion. IMHO both are 24.

BartP wrote:

3. I finally don't understand the concept of flank and rear attack. First example on page 7 says that unit 4 is making a flank attack (even though it is the opposite of unit's 3 front side attack). Whereas second example on the same page shows that (at least I understand it so) there are always up to 2 front side attacks, always 2 flanks and up to 2 rears - where both rears are opposite to respective front side attacks. Is there an error in first example? Or do I have the concept completely mixed up?


I understand it the same as you do.

BartP wrote:

4. Page 7 says that a unit can only attack a unit that it is facing. Later it says that it cannot attack units that are flanking or from the rear (obvious). I know it is not a contradiction, but I just want to make sure, that if two units attack one unit from a front side, the defending one can only attack the one it is directly facing, while it CANNOT attack the other front side attacking unit. Is that correct?


IMHO yes.

BartP wrote:

5. Page 7. Continuing combat. Let's say there are two units attacking one unit, one from the front, the other from the rear. The rear attacking unit received an Assault order last round and benefited (modifiers) from it. However when it continues combat on the next round, the modifiers are gone, right? I'm asking, because the rulebook says "Only units with Assault orders can benefit from these bonuses" as well as "Any unit that is engaged in melee at the beginning of the turn (...) must continue to fight in melee combat. Do not issue any order to these units.".


IMHO yes.

Nice to see another person has the same question as the ones that you have.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken Whitehurst
United States
Virginia Beach
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
We played last night, and had the same questions. I agree with these answers. The most curious one to me is the 'encounter' rule. It's odd that two units would 'stand off' with an open hex between them in this instance. That said, in our game, another unit moved to attack as its second hex move, so it worked out in the end.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stevenson Junior
Czech Republic
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
hursty3 wrote:
We played last night, and had the same questions. I agree with these answers. The most curious one to me is the 'encounter' rule. It's odd that two units would 'stand off' with an open hex between them in this instance. That said, in our game, another unit moved to attack as its second hex move, so it worked out in the end.


I have just checked Russian Barbarossa 1941 rules here: http://art-of-tactic.com/ru/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/barba...

Bottom left of the 6th page is the Encounter with picture. Both squads remain separated by one empty hex.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bartosz Popow
Poland
Gdynia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I wonder how this rule will turn out in actual play. It's a bit unintuitive. I can imagine that if a unit tries to retreat from battle and another unit tries to pass by behind his back, both are unable to move and just remain where they were. Strange.
And if two units one hex away want to attack each other, they may both receive Assault orders and none of them will eventually manage to attack the other one, now that just doesn't make sense at all.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bartosz Popow
Poland
Gdynia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Oh my God, it's one of the worst written rulebooks I've seen thus far. I've just added 3 more questions to the main topic. Seriously though, I've never had that many questions after just reading the rulebook and trying to visualize everything.

By the way, the initial 5 questions were sent over to Zvezda, hopefully I will hear from them next week. I'm not going to start the game if most of my doubts are not cleared.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stevenson Junior
Czech Republic
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
BartP wrote:
6. Page 10. Fire and retreat. First of all, I understand it only works if an enemy unit performs an Assault, right? Or does it work for March and Run as well? How soon can I fire? Even if an attacking cavalry unit is 4 hexes away? The rulebook says "If an enemy attacks this unit through its Defense Zone". Ok, but my ranged units cannot fire at an adjacent hex and what now? Or did they mean by that that I see that in a couple of moves my unit "would be attacked" through its Defense Zone?


Your defense zone is 1 hex "long" only. So enemy unit comes to the melee range, get shot, your unit moves back. Only if the attacker's movement reaches a hex next to your unit after this retreat move, its assault is successful and the units enter melee combat.

BartP wrote:

7. Page 11. Retreat. Quote: "The order is only executed if your unit is not destroyed or Put To Flight during melee combat this turn." How is that possible when move is executed first (point 3) and then melee combat (point 5)? From what I understand, retreating unit will simply retreat from the battle and nothing happens, right? The enemy unit didn't receive any order, so it just stays and does nothing for the turn? I think I just don't see something here.


Pages 16-17 - failing Fortitude tests tells us how units may panic.

BartP wrote:

8. Page 11. Ambush. Quote: "If an enemy unit enters the Defense Zone of the hidden unit, the units are engaged in melee. The hidden unit immediately attacks with a +3 Attack value bonus. The enemy unit does not get to respond to these attacks this turn".
When they say "immediately" does it mean immediately? Like right now, outside of melee combat step? If yes, is there a regular melee afterwards as well? If yes, can an enemy unit respond to it?
Or is it just a bad usage of a word "immediately" and I should interpret it as "The units are engaged in combat. In melee combat step only the unit that was in ambush performs its attacks with a +3 modifier"?


I understand it as "Units are in melee mode, your unit attacks immediately right now, enemy unit does not respond. In melee phase both units do nothing".
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bartosz Popow
Poland
Gdynia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ad 6. How do I determine a number of dice rolled for this order if my ranged units CANNOT shoot at the adjacent hex? Or do I do it right before the enemy enters that hex, so the range is actually 2?

Ad 7. Unfortunately you didn't answer the question. I was asking about Retreat order, not Panicking or Fleeing.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ronin 4life
United States
flag msg tools
As I see it, the Fire and Retreat is a special action that responds to a unit moving into your defensive zone. It isn't a traditional Ranged attack, so it isn't affected by the range limit of the unit.

*Addition* About the retreat order... we just moved the unit after the melee combats against it were resolved. I think this is one of those minor details that was missing from the rulebook mentioned below in my comment...^_^;

I had a thought about the "encounter" rule: could you theoretically order a unit to move into a single space twice? The first move simultaneous with the other unit would result in an encounter, and the second move would slide into the space... is this possible?

I also had quite a few problems myself with certain aspects of the rules during a game the other day with details that seemed to be missing from the book, but have since forgotten them...@.@

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Zvezda Team
Russia
Lobnya
flag msg tools
publisher
Dear All,

Please find the clarifications to your questions:

1. Basically, the units stop and an empty hex will be between them. However, if one of the units got Assault order, it must still move towards the enemy and engage the enemy unit in melee combat. If both units got the Assault order, roll a die for each of them and add the unit's current Fortitude to result of the roll. The unit with bigger total is moved onto the hex between the units. If the totals are equal, roll again.
2. The numbers in the example are, indeed, incorrect. However, their function is just to explain the basic concept. If there are several units with equal total attack value, the defending unit may turn towards any one of them.
3. Both pictures on page 7 are correct. When a unit is engaged in melee combat with one enemy unit, its' fronts, flanks and rears are not rigidly defined. Until it will be attacked by second enemy, the unit will have three fronts, two flanks and one rear. So, since units 3, 4 and 5 are attacking simultaneously, on the first picture unit 4 is attacking unit 1's flank. However, if unit 3 would be already engaged in melee combat with unit 1, unit 4's attack would count as a rear attack. So the second picture shows a different case – the unit is already engaged with two enemy units from the front side and his flanks and rears are now allocated as shown.
4. Yes, the defending unit can only attack the enemy unit it is currently facing.
5. The bonuses apply only in the round when the unit received the assault order. If the combat continues, the bonuses are lost.
6. The Fire and retreat order works only against units with Assault order. Furthermore, if the target of assault is another unit, fire and retreat doesn't work either. So, when a unit with Assault order enters the Defense zone, the defending unit shots (using maximum firepower value). This shot is exception to general rule forbidding shooting at adjacent hexes. Then the defending unit moves back.
7. The retreat order should be carried out after the melee combat phase. So the enemy unit will get a chance to strike blows.
8. The word “immediately” is misleading. All melee attacks are performed in Melee combat step.

All the best,
8 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bartosz Popow
Poland
Gdynia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thank you for all the answers, I can play now!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Customer Service
msg tools
publisher
mb
Update on question #6:

In the most recent version of the rulebook, the Fire and Retreat order has been revised to make the order more clear and easy to use.

When you issue this order to a unit, it gains a Kill Zone. If any enemy unit enters the Kill Zone, the defending unit will fire its ranged weapons, then move backwards 1 hex.

Sorry for the confusion!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.