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Subject: Talisman Revised 4th Edition - Counterspell vs. Nullify rss

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Kilgore Trout
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Had a small dispute with one of my buds over a game of Talisman the other day. He cast nullify on me, and, of course, I retorted with counterspell. He said my counterspell wouldn't work against nullify and I'm inclined to believe him, but I'd like to see what you guys think. His compelling argument was this: "if I cast nullify, that means you don't HAVE counterspell anymore, so, logically, you can't use it". Had to throw my hat in on that one, but, even so, it still says on "any Spell just cast, including the Command spell."
 
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Matt Brown
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I don't know the game, but Counterspell should work in theory. He's attempting to use Nullify, but you are countering it before it fully goes into effect. Counterspell is more for preventing something from taking place. If something has already gone off and you are trying to get rid of it, something like a Dispel Magic would be more appropriate.
 
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Jon New
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Using your friend's logic, Counterspell would then be useless against ANY spell. However, using the wording of Counterspell, this is not the case and it can counter (i.e. cancel the effect of) any spell just cast, including the Command Spell.
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Cyrus the Great
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I know absolutely nothing about Talisman, but I would be inclined to believe based on other games that the Counterspell would resolve and counter Nullify.
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Chris Franka
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I play Talisman (not as frequently as I would like) and I also agree that Counterspell should work. You don't execute the effects of Nullify and THEN cast Counterspell. Counterspell prevents the effects of Nullify from ever taking place. I view it like the sequencing of spells in Magic--Counterspell in spirit is an "interrupt." Is this in the rules? No, but it's consistent with the spirit of the card as I believe it's intended.

If you guys are looking for official rules to resolve this, I don't think you're going to find them. But if you are both willing to take the consensus of opinions of other gamers into account, then it looks like it's tilting in your favor. If he says, "No, I don't accept that because I only accept official rules," then you might want to either just choose not to argue with him or find a different game to play in the future.

EDIT: Plus, Jon New is about as close to a Talisman expert as someone who doesn't work for the license holder can be. He's about as close as you're going to get to an "official" opinion from a fan of the game.
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Rauli Kettunen
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bigtex01 wrote:
EDIT: Plus, Jon New is about as close to a Talisman expert as someone who doesn't work for the license holder can be. He's about as close as you're going to get to an "official" opinion from a fan of the game.


Polite way of saying he is batshit, mad boy bonkers into the game laugh !
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Cyrus the Great
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bigtex01 wrote:
I play Talisman (not as frequently as I would like) and I also agree that Counterspell should work. You don't execute the effects of Nullify and THEN cast Counterspell. Counterspell prevents the effects of Nullify from ever taking place. I view it like the sequencing of spells in Magic--Counterspell in spirit is an "interrupt."

Exactly how I think of it-only interrupts don't exist any more and have been subsumed into instants.
 
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Lovecraft Petrichor
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Ok I was the one that originally brought this up with kktrout in a game recently and while we both agreed my reasoning was sound, we thought it best to ask the gaming community on this one.

Here are the cards in question-- Nulify (spell) and Counterspell (spell).

Cards, such as spells, are played according to the instructions on the cards themselves. Talisman is great in that respect and makes the game simple to play instead of being rules heavy (I recommend it to everyone who enjoys boardgames but hates having to memorize tons of weird rules).

That being said, Nullify says this: "Cast at anytime on any character. That character must discard all of his spells."
Counterspell is worded as follows: "Cast as required. Negate the effects of any spell just cast, including the command spell."

Counter spell is not an interrupting spell as it is in other games, it's a spell of negation to undo the effects of the last spell cast. In the case we ran into, kktrouts spells were discarded, therefore removing the ability to cast counter spell. (i.e. The character has to discard spells due to nullify before even having the opportunity to cast counter spell untill after the event.) If kktrout had drawn counter spell after nullify had been cast then, sure, it could be cast to counter the effects of nullify.

While this may seem to run counter to the spirit or idea of counter spell it makes sense as in other cases where something may prevent a counter spell from working are specifically mentioned in the text of the card. Immobility spell is an example of this: "if cast on a character, he is immobilized(may do nothing apart from negating this spell with Counterspell)" Nullify contains no wording like this this and since counter spell must be cast after another spell is cast (not simultaneously) it may not be cast by a character who just lost it as a spell, thus if it goes away due to nullify it logically cannot be cast as it is no longer in the character's possession.
 
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Matt Brown
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MindPoison wrote:
Negate the effects of any spell just cast


Nullify was just cast; thus it gets negated. If Nullify works, how is a Counterspell going to be played to counter something "just cast?" It won't. By the time the player could use a Counterspell, the moment will have passed.
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Justin
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MindPoison wrote:

Counterspell is worded as follows: "Cast as required. Negate the effects of any spell just cast, including the command spell."


Sure seems like and instant/interrupt to me. They just use a sentence instead of one word to describe it.
 
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Digren K
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MindPoison wrote:
Ok I was the one that originally brought this up with kktrout in a game recently and while we both agreed my reasoning was sound, we thought it best to ask the gaming community on this one.

Here are the cards in question-- Nulify (spell) and Counterspell (spell).

Cards, such as spells, are played according to the instructions on the cards themselves. Talisman is great in that respect and makes the game simple to play instead of being rules heavy (I recommend it to everyone who enjoys boardgames but hates having to memorize tons of weird rules).

That being said, Nullify says this: "Cast at anytime on any character. That character must discard all of his spells."
Counterspell is worded as follows: "Cast as required. Negate the effects of any spell just cast, including the command spell."

Counter spell is not an interrupting spell as it is in other games, it's a spell of negation to undo the effects of the last spell cast. In the case we ran into, kktrouts spells were discarded, therefore removing the ability to cast counter spell. (i.e. The character has to discard spells due to nullify before even having the opportunity to cast counter spell untill after the event.) If kktrout had drawn counter spell after nullify had been cast then, sure, it could be cast to counter the effects of nullify.

While this may seem to run counter to the spirit or idea of counter spell it makes sense as in other cases where something may prevent a counter spell from working are specifically mentioned in the text of the card. Immobility spell is an example of this: "if cast on a character, he is immobilized(may do nothing apart from negating this spell with Counterspell)" Nullify contains no wording like this this and since counter spell must be cast after another spell is cast (not simultaneously) it may not be cast by a character who just lost it as a spell, thus if it goes away due to nullify it logically cannot be cast as it is no longer in the character's possession.


If you are going to parse words, I think you should consider the process to use a spell to have two parts.

1. Spell is cast by the player saying "I'm going to cast Nullify on you."

2. Then, spell takes effect and you lose all your spells.

Thus part one is "Cast" and part two is "Take effect". If someone immediately uses a Counterspell, it occurs between 1 and 2. The first spell is still cast, but due to the Counterspell it never takes effect.
 
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Emile de Maat
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Moved Thread
Moved this thread from the General Gaming forum to the Talisman Rules forum.
 
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Elliott Eastoe
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Counterspell may be used to negate the effects of the Nullify Spell period. Jon New is 100% correct as he has the ear of John Goodenough himself!

Ell.
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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talismanamsilat wrote:
Counterspell may be used to negate the effects of the Nullify Spell period. Jon New is 100% correct as he has the ear of John Goodenough himself!

Ell.


How many points is that trophy worth ninja ?
 
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Elliott Eastoe
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I think he stole it one day! lol

Ell.
 
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talismanisland wrote:
Using your friend's logic, Counterspell would then be useless against ANY spell. However, using the wording of Counterspell, this is not the case and it can counter (i.e. cancel the effect of) any spell just cast, including the Command Spell.


I have been wondering about this, but not for the reason given. My question is this.

If you use Counterspell, it will counter any spell just cast.

Obviously, it will not counter any spell if you don't use it.

But if a spell is in place stopping you from using spells, how can you use Counterspell?

I guess it is a timing question. If someon throws down a card and says 'On you.', does it take effect right away?
 
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FrankLJ wrote:

But if a spell is in place stopping you from using spells, how can you use Counterspell?

I guess it is a timing question. If someon throws down a card and says 'On you.', does it take effect right away?


Think of counterspell as coming into force before the spell it is countering. When someone declares a spell, you can cast counterspell before that spell takes effect.
 
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Jon New
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FrankLJ wrote:
talismanisland wrote:
Using your friend's logic, Counterspell would then be useless against ANY spell. However, using the wording of Counterspell, this is not the case and it can counter (i.e. cancel the effect of) any spell just cast, including the Command Spell.


I have been wondering about this, but not for the reason given. My question is this.

If you use Counterspell, it will counter any spell just cast.

Obviously, it will not counter any spell if you don't use it.

But if a spell is in place stopping you from using spells, how can you use Counterspell?

I guess it is a timing question. If someon throws down a card and says 'On you.', does it take effect right away?

Timing has always been a little bit of an issue in Talisman and is generally dealt with using the card text.

I always had a problem with losing a Mule and being able to salvage what you wanted from it before it fell down the chasm.

For spell use, just think of it in a Terry Pratchett way, so that magic flows slowly like water or even like a Matrix fight scene, all done is slow motion!

...and yes, if someone was to cast Destroy Magic, you would still be able to counter it. Unless you were standing on the Cursed Glade...
 
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Kalten Knight
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MindPoison wrote:
Ok I was the one that originally brought this up with kktrout in a game recently and while we both agreed my reasoning was sound, we thought it best to ask the gaming community on this one.

Here are the cards in question-- Nulify (spell) and Counterspell (spell).

Cards, such as spells, are played according to the instructions on the cards themselves. Talisman is great in that respect and makes the game simple to play instead of being rules heavy (I recommend it to everyone who enjoys boardgames but hates having to memorize tons of weird rules).

That being said, Nullify says this: "Cast at anytime on any character. That character must discard all of his spells."
Counterspell is worded as follows: "Cast as required. Negate the effects of any spell just cast, including the command spell."

Counter spell is not an interrupting spell as it is in other games, it's a spell of negation to undo the effects of the last spell cast. In the case we ran into, kktrouts spells were discarded, therefore removing the ability to cast counter spell. (i.e. The character has to discard spells due to nullify before even having the opportunity to cast counter spell untill after the event.) If kktrout had drawn counter spell after nullify had been cast then, sure, it could be cast to counter the effects of nullify.

While this may seem to run counter to the spirit or idea of counter spell it makes sense as in other cases where something may prevent a counter spell from working are specifically mentioned in the text of the card. Immobility spell is an example of this: "if cast on a character, he is immobilized(may do nothing apart from negating this spell with Counterspell)" Nullify contains no wording like this this and since counter spell must be cast after another spell is cast (not simultaneously) it may not be cast by a character who just lost it as a spell, thus if it goes away due to nullify it logically cannot be cast as it is no longer in the character's possession.


Yes, I believe you are correct.

The problem also is that:
1) The FAQ does not clarify this.
2) The Golden Rules suggest that they support your view:

4th Edition Rules (Page 15):

Golden Rules
The following rules are Talisman’s “Golden Rules,” which
supersede all others.

Can vs. Cannot
In any instance where a card’s effect indicates that a character
cannot perform an action or use an ability (such as casting a
Spell or using an Object), the character cannot do so. In other
words, the forbidding effects of cards override other abilities
and effects. For example, if a card indicates that no Weapons
can be used when fighting a certain creature, the Warrior may
not use any Weapons, despite his ability that allows him to
use two Weapons at the same time.

 
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