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Dungeon Lords» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Calculations based on Minion Action Points (AP) rss

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Mr. Smith
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In my rounds I made the bad experience that sometimes u got really crushed by economics in a more painful way than I have experienced this in other economic style games.

This lead me to the suspicion that the gap between very GOOD and very BAD economic style/efficient game play is greater than in comparable games.

So I did my calculations based in minion ACTIONS POINTS (AP one Actions is one point):

Why AP, or is it really possible to price EVERYTHING in AP? Yes indeed it is.

First of all, what is the basic input resource we have in this game.
Exactly, it is the ACTION, so we have 12 each year makes 24 in the whole game.

This 24 AP are the base amount off resource we have.


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Mr. Smith
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Re: Calculations based on Minion Action Points (AP) 2
Ok, now how to price the different items:

I did several tables which I could put up here later on if there is an interest but first of all will stay to some basic examples.

The easiest thing to price is gold:

I separate the stuff u need to SPEND by producing something and the stuff you HAVE to produce something (inputs and assets). To see how much things cost I postpone the analytics for assets until we have a price. We will keep in mind that possibly things which are cheaply obtainable could maybe require heavy assets!

For Gold producing via an action you need to spend one Action = 1 AP to get 2 /3 /4
So you pay for Gold 0,5 / 0,33 / 0, 25 AP
So if you use 24 actions BAD you get out 48 gold, if you use them GOOD you get 96 so your actions are doubled.
Ok we have now the basic price for gold: 0,5 / 0,33 / 0,25 depending how got we are playing.

Also easily we can determine the price for tunnels and for Evilness.
The price for tunnels is the same as for gold 0,5 / 0,33 / 0,25 AP

Evilness (reducing it) needs one Action= 1 AP and 0 / 0 / 1 Gold to get 1Evil reduced / 2 Evil reduced / 2 Evil reduced. I don’t price the eye cause it is a strategic option.
So the price for evilness is: 0,5 / 0,75 / 1AP

Note that the 2nd option here is the best if we judge by efficiency to get Evil lowered, but mayhaps the 3rd is better due to the strategic option. Anyway just to get evil lowered the 2nd option is the most efficient one. So most efficiently Evil reducing 1 costs 0,5 AP, a novice would pay 1 AP to do that
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Mr. Smith
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The good news is we now can easily calculate the price for Food:
Food needs one Action = 1 AP and 1 Gold/ 1 Evil / 2 Evil to get 2 Food / 3 Food / 3 Food 1 Gold. So we must spend 1,25-1,5 AP / 1,5-2 AP / 2- 3 AP.
In the 3rd option we save one Gold which must be priced (from we already know 0,25 to 0,5).

So most costly we get 2 food for 1,5 Action points which means 1 Food for 0,75 AP
In the best case we get 3 Food and one Gold for 2 Evil so we pay for the 3 Food 1 AP for Evilness (best played) and get back 0,25 AP for the Gold ending up with paying 1,75 AP for the 3 Food which is 0,58 AP

We clearly see that gold is much cheaper in terms of actions than food

I will shorten this by calling some final results:
Imps cost 0,92-1,75 AP (and have a tricky complicating production chain)
Traps cost 0,75-1,5 AP
Rooms 1,5-1,66 AP
Monster Basics 1-1,75 AP (Basic means a monster cots X plus the basics), for example I find out that a slime is from 1,58-2,5 AP, a Demon is from 3,08 to 6,5 AP
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Mr. Smith
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Note that I never claimed any strategic judgment calls. My aim is on the one side to support investigating whether a game is lost due to economic or due to strategic reasons.

Some basic mechanics can easier be underlined by this analytics, for example how expansive is my monster etc.
Also I can figure out the usefulness of the production rooms. For example the chicken chop yields 1 food the turn the first and 2 food the 2nd year. So at max we get 4 Food the first year and 8 the 2nd year saving us as a stupid novice 0,75 AP * 12 Food = 9 AP. Yes 9 AP.

This is the reason why some novice games run so strange and why the production rooms (at least one) are the powerhouses. In expert games the advantage is diminishing due to lower average AP prices for the items but still cant be ignored, I personally estimate you end up with 2-3 saved AP through using a room including sometimes not using it fully.

Would be happy to get some feedback to see if someone is on, I would like to discuss this thoughts more deeply and still have to offer the full tablets and some thoughts to the assets.
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Brian Schroth
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Put your results in an easy-to-read table, please.
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James
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A table would be an excellent idea, as it would make the information much easier to pick up quickly.

There are some mitigating factors on the value of the actions that make them vary situationally. The number of imps you have available to you at the time can make a given level of an action better due to having extra or a shortage of imps that turn. Your ability or inability to pay an additional cost has an impact, often a 'can pay' or 'cannot pay' type of decision which can totally destroy an otherwise brilliant turn.

I find that Dungeon Lords is often about having a plan and trying to predict if you can get your action in the most important return area at the right time. It's one of the things I love about the game (besides it being so unforgivable), you really have to think on your feet, and there is no one, true, clear path that you're going to be able to execute. There are times the first imp slot is going to be best for you based on the game state, and missing out on that is going to cause major headaches. I love it!
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Eric Fletcher
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If you assume that all three places, plus using the room, are equal sources of each resource, then the average equivalent values are:

Minion Actions - 1
Imp Actions - .30
Food - .98
Happy Face - 1.01
Tunnel - .84
Gold - .91
Imp - 1.80
Trap - 1.55
Monster - 1.33 (not counting the actual cost of the monster)
Room - 2.78 (including the cost of the replaced tunnel)

Conversely, if you assume you always get resources in the most efficient way, the equivalent values are:

Minion Actions - 1
Imp Actions - .16
Food - .5
Happy Face - .5
Tunnel - .45
Gold - .45
Imp - .98
Trap - .95
Monster - 1
Room - 1.91
 
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