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Subject: Guardian and Greenhorn now discussed on the Facebook page! rss

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Chris O
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So as of my typing this Greenhorn is not on there yet, but I have given Peter the artwork and he has received it. Guardian is already up. These are by far among the very very best home brews I have ever put out, so give them a look over here: http://www.facebook.com/cosmicencounter If you like them, say so and thumbs up and MAYBE they'll get into the fan expansion!

This is what they look like in BGG format:


[_]GUARDIAN Leads/Follows Coexisting Ships[_]


You have the power to Chaperone. Whenever your ships coexist on a planet with those of another player and either of you moves ships from that planet to another planet, into an encounter, or to the warp, you may use this power. Send up to an equal number of your coexisting ships to follow the other player's ships, or vice-versa. Ships that follow into an encounter automatically become allied on the same side as the followed ships, but do not count against the normal limit of four. This may cause a player to be allied with him- or herself, but this does not allow ships to follow (or join later) if this would cause them to be allied against their own side.

As the offense, if you win an encounter, you may cause the defense's ships to remain on the targeted planet instead of going to the warp.


The Guardians have taken it upon themselves to chaperone the lesser races of the Cosmos and keep them under a watchful eye. Distrustful species are often followed by the Guardians to see their aims, while others are "relocated" to places under Guardian control. Either way, these daunting aliens will not be taken by surprise.


As Any Player Optional
Start Turn Regroup Destiny Launch Alliance Planning Reveal Resolution

Wild: When you are not a main player, if you are invited to ally by one main player but not the other, cause the player who did not invite you to ally to player who did not invite you to ally to hand.
Not Main Player Alliance

Super: As the defense, if you lose an encounter, you may cause your ships to remain on the targeted planet instead of going to the warp.
Defense Only Resolution




[_] GREENHORN Makes Convenient "Mistakes"[_]


You have to power of Ignorance. Whenever you have no encounter cards in your hand, you may use this power to draw a new hand (potentially continuing your turn if you are the offense).

Whenever you retrieve ships from the warp or are on the winning side of an encounter, you may use this power to place some or all of your retrieved or involved ships onto any of your home planets, even those where you did not already have a colony.

You may use this power to play certain cards outside the normal phase and/or prerequisite limits. You may play reinforcements when not involved in the encounter; play rifts, Mobius Tubes, Plague, and Hand Zap as any player and during any phase; defer your play of a kicker until after encounter cards are revealed; and play Force Field any time before the resolution phase.

The Greenhorns are relative newcomers to the scene of Cosmic warfare. Feigning inexperience, they use their wiles to trick other races into allowing them to get away with everything in the book. Surely such room is all that is needed for these "newbies" to glide comfortably into universal dominance.

As Any Player Optional
Start Turn Regroup Destiny Launch Alliance Planning Reveal Resolution

Wild:As the defense, when the Offense aims the hyperspace gate at one of your home planets on which you have no colony but another player does, you may declare a player who has a colony there to be the defense instead of you. If you do so, you may force all other uninvolved players who also have a colony on your home planet to remove their ships from that planet and place them as defensive allies. You may not force players to encounter themselves or to ally against themselves.
Defense Only Launch

Super:After aiming the hyperspace gate at a planet whose owner has no colony on it, you may force any player who has a colony on it to be the defense. If you do so, you may also force all other uninvolved players who have colonies on that planet to remove their ships from that planet and place them as defensive allies. You may not force players to encounter themselves or to ally against themselves.
Offense Only Launch



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Ben Finkel
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Aaaand I just learned I've been playing and teaching Reinforcement cards incorrectly ... blush

I think "Chaperone" with "the power to Accompany" might be a more flavorful approach to the power, putting it in the same sort of space as the Butler and Remora of sci-fi Victorianism. But that's just me! Cool powers and reading Greenhorn was a riot.
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Roberta Yang
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Messianic wrote:
the hyperspace gate, into an encounter as a defensive ally,

I refuse to accept that this is not redundant.
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Just a Bill
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Some wording suggestions on Guardian:
You have the power to Chaperone. Whenever your ships coexist on a planet with those of another player and either of you moves ships from that planet to another planet, the hyperspace gate, into an encounter as a defensive ally, or to the warp, you may use this power. Send up to an equal number of your coexisting ships to follow the other player's ships, or vice-versa. Ships that follow to the gate or into an encounter as a defensive ally automatically become allied with on the same side as the followed ships, but do not count against the normal limit of four. This may cause a player to be allied with him- or herself, but no this does not allow ships may to follow (or join later) if this would cause them to be allied against their own side.

As the offense, if you win an encounter, you may cause the defense's ships to remain on the targeted planet instead of going to the warp.

The Guardians have taken it upon themselves to chaperone the lesser races of the Cosmos and keep them under a watchful eye. Distrustful species are often followed by the Guardians to see their aims, while others are "relocated" to places under Guardian control. Either way, these daunting aliens will not be taken by surprise.

Wild: When you are not a main player, if you are invited to ally by one main player invites you to ally but not the other, use this flare to you may cause the main player who did not invite you to ally to lose discard a card at random from their his or her hand.

Super: As the defense, if you lose an encounter, you may cause your ships to remain on the targeted planet instead of going to the warp.
Main Player Only Defense Only


Not trying to change any of your gameplay, but I am trying to resolve a couple of questions based on my assumptions about your intent. Specifically, I assume you want subsequent alliance decisions to occur normally regardless of the "following", which is why I clarified that when you force somebody to follow, that same somebody could still ally in the proper sequence with up to 4 more ships if they want to. In other words, it doesn't matter whether the "following" comes before or after that person's normal turn to ally. (Sorry if this is not the correct assumption.)

The other suggestions are basically intended to tighten up the wording and reduce a bit of redundancy.

Note also two tweaks suggested because of Lunatic: changing "allied with the side followed" to "allied on the same side as the followed ships" makes it more clear which side the following ships land on, and changing "no ships may follow" to "this does not allow ships to follow" avoids thwarting Lunatic using his power after the "following" happens (it still doesn't let Guardian force Lunatic's power to be used to follow, though).

(Sorry, haven't had time to study Greenhorn yet.)

salty53 wrote:
Messianic wrote:
the hyperspace gate, into an encounter as a defensive ally,
I refuse to accept that this is not redundant.

Well it certainly would be redundant if FFG hadn't gooobered up this part of the rules, but in either case I think it should all be replaced with "into an encounter" for brevity. This is a slight gameplay change in that when you "follow" Amoeba as he bolsters his defending ships on the targeted planet, you become a defensive ally instead of getting a colony on that planet, but I doubt this will make or break the power.
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Just a Bill
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Thoughts on Greenhorn:
You may use this power to play certain cards outside the normal phase and/or prerequisite limits. This includes playing You may play reinforcements when not involved in the encounter; playing rifts, Mobius Tubes, Plague, and Hand Zap as any player and during any phase; deferring your play of a kicker until after encounter cards are revealed; and playing Force Field any time before the resolution phase.

The Greenhorns are relative newcomers to the scene of Cosmic warfare. Feigning inexperience, they use their wiles to trick other races into allowing them to get away with everything in the book. Surely such room is all that is needed for these "newbies" to glide comfortably into universal dominance.

Wild: W As the defense, when the offense aims the hyperspace gate at one of your home planets on which you have no colony and but another player does, you may declare a player who has a colony on your home planet there to be the defense instead of you, and. If you do so, you may force all other uninvolved players who also have a colony on your home planet to be remove their ships from that planet and place them as defensive allies. You may not force a players to encounter themselves or to ally against themselves.

Super: After aiming the hyperspace gate at a planet whose owner has no colony on it, you may force any player who has a colony on it to be the defense, and. If you do so, you may also force all other uninvolved players who have colonies on that planet to be remove their ships from that planet and place them as defensive allies. You may not force a players to encounter themselves or to ally against themselves.


The original "This includes" approach suggested that the following list were just examples, but they are actually the definitive list of allowed card plays, right?

I'm not sure if you actually intended the forced defensive allies to leave the planet and go into the gate/near the gate, but I strongly recommend it. If you don't, then you may find you have a lot more work to do to plug leaks associated with having allies on the targeted planet (which has never been possible).
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Chris O
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Impressive, as usual, Bill.

Yea that Greenhorn list is definitive.

I guess I can ALWAYS assume that I can;t word my powers worth a hill of beans, lol.
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Ken H.
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How about letting Greenhorn play Force Field after cards are revealed, as he can with Kickers? Playing it before resolution doesn't seem to improve it very much.
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Chris O
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Rubric wrote:
How about letting Greenhorn play Force Field after cards are revealed, as he can with Kickers? Playing it before resolution doesn't seem to improve it very much.


He can play it after cards are revealed, since that is the reveal phase, but not after everything else has been decided has been decided. And it also makes your opponent have a false sense of confidence in that he places his card down thinking all those ships allied to him aren't going anywhere, where after cards are revealed you can kill the alliance and his confidence may be his undoing.
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Roberta Yang
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Rubric wrote:
How about letting Greenhorn play Force Field after cards are revealed, as he can with Kickers? Playing it before resolution doesn't seem to improve it very much.


> after cards are revealed
> before resolution

Pretty radical change you're suggesting there.
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Just a Bill
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Messianic wrote:
I guess I can ALWAYS assume that I can;t word my powers worth a hill of beans, lol.

Actually what you started with was pretty good. Writing alien powers (well, writing in general) is a process of stepwise refinement, and my own go through many iterations of editing too. Sometimes I start out with a pretty big mess. It's hard to see the details when I'm working on the big picture, and vice versa.

Are you going to post your revised Guardian on facebook?

And is it the power to chaperone (here) or to bond (there)? I think I would vote for the latter, since it better fits the bidirectional nature of the "following" mechanic.
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Ken H.
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salty53 wrote:
Rubric wrote:
How about letting Greenhorn play Force Field after cards are revealed, as he can with Kickers? Playing it before resolution doesn't seem to improve it very much.


> after cards are revealed
> before resolution

Pretty radical change you're suggesting there.



Well, I am a pretty radical guy!

...and apparently easily confused by words beginning with R. Reveal, resolve, whatever.

But, in my defense, this clause of the alien text seems unnecessarily complex:

Messianic wrote:
defer your play of a kicker until after encounter cards are revealed; and play Force Field any time before the resolution phase.


If "after reveal" and "before resolution" are the same thing, then the Kicker rule and the Force Field rule could be handled in one clause.

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Just a Bill
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Rubric wrote:
If "after reveal" and "before resolution" are the same thing, then the Kicker rule and the Force Field rule could be handled in one clause.

That's true, and it would be simpler. I like it ... but would this restrict the creative use of Force Field if it were pigeonholed into post-reveal-only, rather than being usable essentially any time during the encounter?
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Chris O
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Bill Martinson wrote:
Messianic wrote:
I guess I can ALWAYS assume that I can;t word my powers worth a hill of beans, lol.

Actually what you started with was pretty good. Writing alien powers (well, writing in general) is a process of stepwise refinement, and my own go through many iterations of editing too. Sometimes I start out with a pretty big mess. It's hard to see the details when I'm working on the big picture, and vice versa.

Are you going to post your revised Guardian on facebook?

And is it the power to chaperone (here) or to bond (there)? I think I would vote for the latter, since it better fits the bidirectional nature of the "following" mechanic.



It is the power to Chaperone. I originally called this "Limpet" with power to "Bond", but took Phil's advice for using the word Chaperone and then the word Guardian made way more sense as parents will follow their kids or drag them around as needed.

Peter was using an outdated template for this, nothing more.

EDIT: Why hasn't anyone form here commented of the FB discussion?
 
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Just a Bill
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Messianic wrote:
Why hasn't anyone form here commented of the FB discussion?

The overlap between the two venues is very small: in general, maybe four CE players on a really good day. I've pretty much made all my comments here on BGG, so I don't feel like I have anything to add on facebook.

I understand that Peter chose that venue so it would be more accessible, and certainly facebook will always be orders of magnitude more mainstream than BGG. And I thought it would probably work, too ... but now hardly anyone comments and there just doesn't seem to be a lot of energy over there.

Not sure why that is for others, but speaking for myself I really dislike that environment for a process like this. It's not optimized for productive discussion so much as streams of statements that loosely group together. You don't get any formatting capability; there's no quoting or cross-linking or index of any kind; going back and finding things you want to read again is frustrating; it's hard to add photos and hyperlinks; until recently, editing was impossible; the audience is less knowledgeable and less suggestive of improvements; if you're not careful you hit Enter and post your message before you're finished composing it ... there's really nothing about it that works well for an effort like this other than the ease of typing "Cosmic" into the search bar and hitting Enter so you can find the page.

So don't feel like it has anything to do with your power. Probably some people just aren't finding the facebook "thing" a compelling draw in general.
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Ken H.
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Messianic wrote:
Why hasn't anyone form here commented of the FB discussion?


For me, it's because I don't even have an account, as it just never interested me much (referring to Facebook in general, not Cosmic discussion obviously). I almost signed up when they started this project, but then I didn't.

Bill Martinson wrote:

It's not optimized for productive discussion so much as streams of statements that loosely group together. You don't get any formatting capability; there's no quoting or cross-linking or index of any kind; going back and finding things you want to read again is frustrating; it's hard to add photos and hyperlinks; until recently, editing was impossible; the audience is less knowledgeable and less suggestive of improvements; if you're not careful you hit Enter and post your message before you're finished composing it ... there's really nothing about it that works well for an effort like this other than the ease of typing "Cosmic" into the search bar and hitting Enter so you can find the page.


...and all that makes me feel like I made the right decision. Wow! I guess when you're writing with only your thumbs, you don't need all those features.

BTW, completely unrelated to Cosmic, I attempted to send my first text EVER last week, and failed. Somehow I ended up accidentally calling the person, after spending several minutes on painstaking thumbwork.
 
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