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Subject: Why does the core set not contain 4 spellbooks? rss

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Joltin' Joe
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The Mage Wars website lists the components in the core set.

I was really excited about this game until I read them.

The Play Unplugged video interview (http://boardgamegeek.com/video/8716/mage-wars/play-unplugged...) notes that the plan was to have four spellbooks, which makes perfect sense since there are 4 mages in the game.

The website says that, although you get lots of spell cards for all 4 mages, you only get TWO spellbooks. You also get only 2 mage status boards.

What's up with that?

Do they really think people are going to want to pull nearly 100 cards out of the book and refill it EVERY time they want to play a different mage?

I would expect that this just means they are going to charge everyone EXTRA to buy materials for the other 2 wizards. But if that's the case, why bother even including the spells for 2 wizards you don't have status boards or spellbooks for?

You can't play 2v2 teams or 4-player free for all because you don't have the materials. Sure, you can just use the cards in a deck and shuffle through them, and keep track of things on paper, but that's not much fun.

Very disappointing.
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Justin Robben
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The great quality of the included spell books pushed the price point further than they would have liked. It was a decision between charging ~$20 more to everyone or letting only those who want the 4 player option purchase the 2 spell books separately, saving many people that $20.

I intend to buy 2 more books but I appreciate what they did. Truthfully, it seems like a thoughtful stroke.

Don't let that discourage you from playing this game. It's really fun with a ton of options.

And all the stuff you are getting in the core set is more than enough for you to enjoy. And if you do like it...then pick up 2 books! If it isn't for you, well you saved some dough in the long run.
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Patrick C Connor Jr
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Joe, we appreciate your response and concern. The reason for the change was to make our game more accessible to the gaming community at-large. The most expensive component in the game is the spellbook. The addition of two extra spellbooks with components would have brought the price of the game out of reach for many gamers. Therefore, we made a decision to market the game as a 2-player game in order for it to be more accessible to our fans.

As the game stands now with only 2 spellbooks, it should retail for $74.00. We’re discounting it even further to achieve a $59.99 price point. We promise you, this has nothing to do with trying to make an extra buck on spellbooks. From the very beginning we have wanted to give players the best experience possible for under $60. We are planning a deluxe Mage Wars set for next year which will have 4 spellbooks, miniatures, and other bonuses, and sell at a higher price point.

In the meantime, we will have extra spellbooks and components available for purchase. Thank you for your interest and comments.

Sincerely,

The Mage Wars Team
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David desJardins
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pconnor wrote:
Therefore, we made a decision to market the game as a 2-player game in order for it to be more accessible to our fans.


The problem he's raising is that even as a 2-player game it doesn't work very well with only 2 spellbooks, because if you want to change to a different mage it's a big pain to rearrange all of the cards.
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Gergo Tothmihaly
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pconnor wrote:
We are planning a deluxe Mage Wars set for next year which will have 4 spellbooks, miniatures, and other bonuses, and sell at a higher price point.

How about an upgrade pack (from standard to deluxe version)?
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Matt Shinners
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pconnor wrote:
We are planning a deluxe Mage Wars set for next year which will have 4 spellbooks, miniatures, and other bonuses, and sell at a higher price point.


ARGH! I'm so sick of this.

If you want to do this, release it at the same time as the base game. Don't make me buy the 'regular' edition if I want to play now, and then rebuy when the deluxe comes out. It's bad enough when a game's a hit and the company decides after to release a deluxe version, but you seem to be planning it.

Yes, it's a free market. I can not buy the game, and you can sell it however you want. But I'm getting sick of this becoming increasingly standard in the industry. There are enough games that I'm going to start skipping those that are going for the double dip.

-Edit- If you release an upgrade pack that would place the original release +pack within $10 of the Deluxe, that wins me back.
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Ryan McCabe
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MattShinners wrote:
pconnor wrote:
We are planning a deluxe Mage Wars set for next year which will have 4 spellbooks, miniatures, and other bonuses, and sell at a higher price point.


ARGH! I'm so sick of this.

If you want to do this, release it at the same time as the base game. Don't make me buy the 'regular' edition if I want to play now, and then rebuy when the deluxe comes out. It's bad enough when a game's a hit and the company decides after to release a deluxe version, but you seem to be planning it.

Yes, it's a free market. I can not buy the game, and you can sell it however you want. But I'm getting sick of this becoming increasingly standard in the industry. There are enough games that I'm going to start skipping those that are going for the double dip.

-Edit- If you release an upgrade pack that would place the original release +pack within $10 of the Deluxe, that wins me back.


You want an Oompa Loompa and you want it NOW!

If there are enough games, you could totally just wait for the deluxe edition. At least they are telling you up front that one is going to exist, where most companies just release one months later, making early adopters look like idiots sometimes.

Also, just because you say to release them at the same time doesn't mean it's fiscally or logistically feasible. I'm sure if they could, they would.
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Matt Shinners
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hotcoffeeburns wrote:
I'm sure if they could, they would.


I'm not.

Well, not always. Here, I'd be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. However, I'm taking a very defined stance here to let companies know that if they want my money, they shouldn't engage in this practice. Sure, in a situation where it's not fiscally/logistically feasible through no fault of the producer, they lose a sale through no fault of their own. But if enough people refuse to keep getting jerked around by producers who are double-dipping their games (since this hobby lends itself to people who are compulsive collectors), then maybe it'll stop being something that ANYONE will do, and they'll find solutions to work around those logistical/fiscal problems.

Patrick, sorry to vent about a general problem in a thread dedicated to your game. Like I said, I'm not just complaining - I'll completely change my mind if there's an announced upgrade pack that is equivalent in price to just buying the deluxe version (+$10 or so). So please, give us the upgrade option so I can get your game!
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Dan Massek
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If they do it similar to Summoned Wars where the Master Set is like their deluxe version, but it came with 6 new factions and mounted boards, so other than dice it was all new content Or in the case of the board a nice upgrade. I kind of doubt if Mage Wars is going that route, but it would be smart if they did.
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Joltin' Joe
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pconnor wrote:
Joe, we appreciate your response and concern. The reason for the change was to make our game more accessible to the gaming community at-large. The most expensive component in the game is the spellbook. The addition of two extra spellbooks with components would have brought the price of the game out of reach for many gamers. Therefore, we made a decision to market the game as a 2-player game in order for it to be more accessible to our fans.

As the game stands now with only 2 spellbooks, it should retail for $74.00. We’re discounting it even further to achieve a $59.99 price point. We promise you, this has nothing to do with trying to make an extra buck on spellbooks. From the very beginning we have wanted to give players the best experience possible for under $60. We are planning a deluxe Mage Wars set for next year which will have 4 spellbooks, miniatures, and other bonuses, and sell at a higher price point.

In the meantime, we will have extra spellbooks and components available for purchase. Thank you for your interest and comments.

Sincerely,

The Mage Wars Team


Thanks, I appreciate your response. I found your website after having seen the game here at the Geek, and so was confused by the marketing on the website. Including 4 mages made me think it was a 4 player game, not a 2-player one.

While I can appreciate the extra materials changing the price point, you may want to include the notices on your website about "a la carte" spell books and other game materials being available as well. Without that, I know I would steer clear.

I haven't done any marketing research, as I am sure you have, but IMHO, I think you may be underestimating gamers. There are plenty of games out there at an $80 price point that do very well. People will pay for convenience, and when a game, even a very good one, becomes a pain in the rear to set up, it won't see a lot of play. My group would love this game, UNTIL John wants to play beastmaster and is told, "Ok, but you get to take all the cards out and reinsert them because I used the warlock last." The response will be "Hmmm... what else can we play?" cry
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Tommy Occhipinti
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How many spells do you have to put in the spellbook to play?
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Joseph Rose
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pconnor wrote:
We are planning a deluxe Mage Wars set for next year which will have 4 spellbooks, miniatures, and other bonuses, and sell at a higher price point.
I got to play a demo of this at DiceTowerCon and it concreted that I wanted to get this right at release... but now after that statement... I'm not so sure. I don't want to buy the game to play it now then a few months down the road a deluxe set is released and I have to buy the game again.

Yes, it's great that you are telling us upfront, it lessens the sting, but it still stings... Why buy it now when you're just releasing a version that you already consider a lesser version than your final intent?

If you announce that there will also be a deluxe upgrade pack that comes out to the same price. Or announce that the deluxe set will offer all new mages, components, etc... so it is a new addition to the base game, other than maybe the board, then sure I'm fine with that and will buy now.

You keep announcing all these plans, expansions, deluxe set, etc... and you haven't gotten the game out yet.

You contradict yourself when you say you made changes to the original release to make the price point more accessible then turn around and say you have plans to make a deluxe set that's at a higher price point.

Yes, I want to give you my money... but let the consumer get hooked on the game before you keep pushing more product. Let the game get established before you start re-releasing a better version of the original. Or just postpone the release and do it right the first time by making your deluxe version the base set. If it's the great game you expect it to be then gamers will support it at the higher price point if it's done right.

Please don't misunderstand my rant, the deluxe set sounds like exactly what I'd want in the game, so I hope you release it. Also, I love the fact that you keep people in the know. But I have to say, in my case, and in some other people that I've seen on here and that I've talked to... this constant fluctuation of your product description, prices, and selling sets of the same things is just hurting your sales before it's even released.

I'm a supporter of your product so I hope you will keep this consumer's opinions in mind for current and future releases/development.

I love the game concept and design and want to see it do well.
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Patrick C Connor Jr
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MattShinners wrote:
-Edit- If you release an upgrade pack that would place the original release +pack within $10 of the Deluxe, that wins me back.


Core Set ($59.99) + Core Spell Tome ($19.99) = $79.98

Both will be available at Gen Con Indy 2012. We are in Booths #1638 - 1639.

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Matt Shinners
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pconnor wrote:
MattShinners wrote:
-Edit- If you release an upgrade pack that would place the original release +pack within $10 of the Deluxe, that wins me back.


Core Set ($59.99) + Core Spell Tome ($19.99) = $79.98

Both will be available at Gen Con Indy 2012. We are in Booths #1638 - 1639.



"4 spellbooks, miniatures, and other bonuses"

And the miniatures/other bonuses? Will they also be available separately?
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Patrick C Connor Jr
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delirimouse wrote:
How many spells do you have to put in the spellbook to play?


Each Mage can put 120 spell points worth of spells in their spellbook. Spell point cost is determined by (1) School of Magic, (2) Level of the Spell. If your Mage specializes in a School of Magic, the cost in spell point is equal to its spell level. Outside of your school, spells will cost double their spell level.

You can put six (6) copies of a Level 1 spell, and four (4) copies of a Level 2+ spell in your spellbook.

Other than those restrictions, your build is up to you. We will have introductory builds for each Mage available in the Rulebook.
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Bryan Pope
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Joseph, You make an excellent point sir, thanks for the comment and your interest in the game.

I want to apologize for creating any confusion, and I can certainly see where you might have concern.

The "deluxe" set is a actually just a concept at this stage, and the earliest you would see its release would be Christmas of 2013, almost 1.5 years away.

Very important: There should be nothing included in a deluxe version that is not available to purchase separately by all gamers, and well in advance of the deluxe set. In this manner, no gamer will miss out on anything!

The concept of Mage Wars is to remove the "collectible" aspect, put gamers on equal footing, and not make anyone have to buy anything they don't want or need.

The deluxe version is just a bundled version of the game. The additional bundled items are 4 spellbooks (instead of 2), 2 other colors of action markers, and 4 miniatures. Each of these items will be available for sale separately, well in advance of the deluxe set. We are working with Cartamundi right now to have extra spellbooks and action markers available asap.

Okay, so bottom line: No one will miss out on anything if they buy Mage Wars now. The deluxe version is just a bundled package of all the things players can buy over the next several months, packaged into one set.

Hope this helps. Please let me know if you have any other questions!

Bryan

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Joseph Rose
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Lord Galactus wrote:
Okay, so bottom line: No one will miss out on anything if they buy Mage Wars now. The deluxe version is just a bundled package of all the things players can buy over the next several months, packaged into one set.

Thank you Bryan, that puts me at ease, consider my copy purchased.
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Matt
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That answers most of the questions I was going to bring to GenCon, Bryan. Thanks very much for the clarification. Like Joseph said, I'm as good as sold now. Can't wait to demo this Friday night and to buy a copy.

Thanks to you and to Patrick as well for the informative and very fast responses! I love to see that from game-makers, and thank you two very much!
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Bryan Pope
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Awesome. Thanks Matt and Joseph. We appreciate the support. And frankly, if we need to do something different let us know and keep us in line! We appreciate our fans and will work hard to bring you a great value.
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Matt Shinners
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Lord Galactus wrote:
Okay, so bottom line: No one will miss out on anything if they buy Mage Wars now.


Awesome, thanks for the info, Bryan. And thank you for taking a very consumer-friendly stance!
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Joseph Rose
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Lord Galactus wrote:
Awesome. Thanks Matt and Joseph. We appreciate the support. And frankly, if we need to do something different let us know and keep us in line! We appreciate our fans and will work hard to bring you a great value.

I just placed my preorder.
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Patrick C Connor Jr
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DeviantMagick wrote:
Lord Galactus wrote:
Awesome. Thanks Matt and Joseph. We appreciate the support. And frankly, if we need to do something different let us know and keep us in line! We appreciate our fans and will work hard to bring you a great value.

I just placed my preorder.


Amazing Joseph! Thank you so much!
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Drew Dallas
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so what am I missing that a 3 ring binder and some 9 pocket pages can't work for this game?
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Justin Gortner
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Collectability and synergy with the existing provided spellbooks. Nothing says you have to use a binder at all actually. However it does provide a more immersive experience.

The Mage Ware guys already state that all players will always be able to buy all components seperately, which should put everyone (including myself) at ease.

J

Darksbane wrote:
so what am I missing that a 3 ring binder and some 9 pocket pages can't work for this game?
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William Chew
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So will adding the core spell tome be enough to play games with 4 players? I was really excited about the game when it was 2-4 players, but was disappointed to hear about the change back in April. I did a demo at Origins and that swayed me enough to preorder it. This would be even better news if I only needed to drop another $20 to do 4 player games.
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