Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
31 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Sergeants Miniatures Game: Day of Days» Forums » Rules

Subject: Radio and Artillery rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Greg
United States
Lowell
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I was wondering why you can only target Landmarks when using artillery? I just played Slugging Through The Mud and had to use up 8 VPs out of my total VP's allowed for my American forces to by a radio and mortar and it had pretty much zero effect on the game other than slightly discouraging the other player from entering a sighted Landmark, but more importantly it cost me 8 VPs that could have been used toward another leader to help me get initiative vs. his 2 German leaders, or it could have helped get me a machine gunner like the Germans had or it could have gotten me 2 4VP Americans soldiers.

It just seems that it's such a hard action to pull off anyway, besides having to wait until after turn 5 to use it, you have to be able to play 2 Look cards in a turn.

It just seems that considering how much it costs, it would be nice to be able to target regular squares to be more useful and worth the cost. It could also help flush out the enemy that's sticking to non-landmark squares but tearing you up with their extra 2 or 3 soldiers they have.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jay Duval
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The American soldiers in general are better trained. The cost for each soldier reflects this. In my experience in a one on one competition the Americans almost always win. The points costs reflect this and in most cases when your playing equal points the germans will field more soldiers, but they need too. So a cobbling of the Americans by forcing them to buy a radio and mortar I found kind of levels the playing field a bit.
This scenerio is one of the few that gives the Germans a leg up and they have a legitimate chance of winning it.

Just my opinion.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew DiGregorio
United States
West Babylon
New York
flag msg tools
badge
I'm a scary clown!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
i have played this scenario once (as the Americans) and i lost it big time. Artillery never came into play for me, either.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ubergeek
United States
Washougal
Washington
flag msg tools
Be Happy in your Game!
badge
I spent 100 Geek Gold and all I got was this lousy overtext message!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't think it would kill the game to allow artillery to target any hex with a slight modification (or even no modification). It's bad enough that the R.O. is the one that has to do the spotting so he's got to be alive, and then you have to burn 2 LOOK cards to target the square which isn't a luxury that comes up that often.

Still, Landmarks are 4 squares so as a variant, maybe if you call in fire on a normal 5x5 square you should pull a blast check for accuracy. If you pull a hit, the artillery is accurate and hits the square. If it's a miss, your opponent gets to designate the adjacent square (not LM) where the artillery hits. Or, if you don't mind using a die, roll a d8 if the blast check is a miss and determine which square it falls into (including a LM which might each up 2 pips of the die).

Thoughts?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg
United States
Lowell
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah Walt, that seems like it could work, though I could see just playing it straight up like a landmark. You have to sight it and have to play 2 Look actions in the same turn just to pull it off. Then pulling Blast Checks aren't automatic hits anyway, and then a hit isn't really always a wound, kill or pin.

I mean even in that scenario Slugging Through The Rain, you can't even use it until turn 6 and it's a 13 turn scenario. The cards and the situation still has to be pretty good for it to work out. Sure the 5x5's are smaller and may seem like more accuracy would be needed, but they would also affect a lot less figures in it too as it's easier to keep your figures close to each other but be in different regular squares, while being in a landmark takes more time to move out of it and harder to keep people near each other but not in it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg
United States
Lowell
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Xscreamist wrote:
The American soldiers in general are better trained. The cost for each soldier reflects this. In my experience in a one on one competition the Americans almost always win. The points costs reflect this and in most cases when your playing equal points the germans will field more soldiers, but they need too. So a cobbling of the Americans by forcing them to buy a radio and mortar I found kind of levels the playing field a bit.
This scenerio is one of the few that gives the Germans a leg up and they have a legitimate chance of winning it.

Just my opinion.


That's true to an extent for sure, but the extra cost of the Americans in this sceanario allowed them to have one Leader that was a 10 VP Tech Sgt (others were 8 VP but that still doesn't get me an extra soldier) and 4 4VP soldiers and 1 3VP soldier plus 3 Grenades.

The Germans had 2 Leaders (huge for initiative) a machine gun team and 4 other soldiers. Being able to have the extra Leader made for him having initiative most the time and the machine gunner gave him a lot better range with 18in close range and 18 square long range. But more importantly were the Hits available on the MG's cards that affected all the other 2 vp Germans and gave him a much better chance of getting hits. Heck, he has 2 cards that have 3 hits at short range with another 1 hit at long range. He also has a lot of other multiple hit cards that help his teammates.

But anyway, my main point was that I would have at least liked to be able to use the radio/artillery and with it being hard to pull off anyway, it's even harder when you are limited to landmarks only. I understand this scenario is helpful in giving the Germans an advantage and that's great, but it would have been fun to pull the Blast checks for the 60mm mortar at least once
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg
United States
Lowell
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
slyde wrote:
i have played this scenario once (as the Americans) and i lost it big time. Artillery never came into play for me, either.


All I can say is that an Ox did as much damage to the Germans with a Cause and Effect card as my American "sharpshooters" and their miss, miss, miss draws. The German gets one long range shot several times and gets a Hit and then I draw a Wound or Kill card for damage. No matter how much better trained the Americans are, the still die with 2 Wounds or 1 Kill being drawn.

I did get to Pin the Germans, but just couldn't finish them and they'd Rally etc. I had been trying to lure them closer into the sighted landmarks but they didn't bite and just shot me up from range. I would have been better off totally forgetting about the radio and artillery as I would have played it differently.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sgt. Hulka
msg tools
Walt Mulder wrote:
I don't think it would kill the game to allow artillery to target any hex with a slight modification (or even no modification). It's bad enough that the R.O. is the one that has to do the spotting so he's got to be alive, and then you have to burn 2 LOOK cards to target the square which isn't a luxury that comes up that often.


Perhaps I'm understanding this wrong? I didn't think you had to burn two look cards...I was under the impression that you simply needed two look cards played in a turn. In other words, you can still take look actions on those cards.

I also was under the impression that you could use the first of those two look cards to sight the landmark in question. So really, all you need is two look cards played in a turn to land the artillery? (assuming your radio operator isn't dead and assuming it's after turn 5)

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Todd
United States
Colorado
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
SgtHulka wrote:
Walt Mulder wrote:
I don't think it would kill the game to allow artillery to target any hex with a slight modification (or even no modification). It's bad enough that the R.O. is the one that has to do the spotting so he's got to be alive, and then you have to burn 2 LOOK cards to target the square which isn't a luxury that comes up that often.


Perhaps I'm understanding this wrong? I didn't think you had to burn two look cards...I was under the impression that you simply needed two look cards played in a turn. In other words, you can still take look actions on those cards.

I also was under the impression that you could use the first of those two look cards to sight the landmark in question. So really, all you need is two look cards played in a turn to land the artillery? (assuming your radio operator isn't dead and assuming it's after turn 5)



This was my understanding as well. I'll have to go reread the rules to see where my confusion is with this type of action. I thought having 2 look actions pop up in the 3 cards was pretty uncommon, so I thought the chances of actually using artillery was pretty slim.

Maus
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg
United States
Lowell
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Maus wrote:
SgtHulka wrote:
Walt Mulder wrote:
I don't think it would kill the game to allow artillery to target any hex with a slight modification (or even no modification). It's bad enough that the R.O. is the one that has to do the spotting so he's got to be alive, and then you have to burn 2 LOOK cards to target the square which isn't a luxury that comes up that often.


Perhaps I'm understanding this wrong? I didn't think you had to burn two look cards...I was under the impression that you simply needed two look cards played in a turn. In other words, you can still take look actions on those cards.

I also was under the impression that you could use the first of those two look cards to sight the landmark in question. So really, all you need is two look cards played in a turn to land the artillery? (assuming your radio operator isn't dead and assuming it's after turn 5)



This was my understanding as well. I'll have to go reread the rules to see where my confusion is with this type of action. I thought having 2 look actions pop up in the 3 cards was pretty uncommon, so I thought the chances of actually using artillery was pretty slim.

Maus


I think we're on the same page guys. I don't think Walt meant "burn" the Look cards as if you couldn't use their actions, but rather that you had to play two Look cards in a turn where perhaps the other action allowed on the Phase Card would be needed as well. Like if it were Look/Shoot Look/Hide Move/Shoot, you would have to forgo the Shoot action in the first phase and the Hide action in the second phase to play the two Look cards to bring in artillery. That might feel like "burning" them because you might really want to Shoot and Hide that turn but you can't until the third phase where you can only Shoot then. But by then the opponent could have played a Shoot card in phase 1 and killed your Radio Operator, took cover in the second phase and moved in the third phase, so then you can't shoot him in the third phase because he took cover in phase 2. Meanwhile your Radio Operator is dead and there's no artillery after all.


But yeah, I think you can still use the first Look to sight the landmark, but it has to be the Radio Operator's dog tag action (not always conveniently there when you need it) and then you can use the second Look to trigger the arty. You should still be able to take the Look actions with both of those Look cards.

While you can't control the Story Deck for getting 2 Look actions come up, you can at least have a Leader or two to be able to draw more cards each turn to be able to have more of a chance to have 2 Look cards in your hand to play, or even if you can use a Hide action with a leader to Hold one or two Look cards for future use. That can help. That all said though, it seems like getting arty to fall is likely to be a rare event.

Now with that Orders card that says artillery will drop on a certain landmark on turn 7 for 20 VP's, do you still have to play two Look cards on turn 7 for that to happen or does it happen automatically? It's worth 20 VPs so I didn't know if you lose those VP's if no Look cards come out in turn 7 or if it happens automatically. If you needed to do it the way you call any other artillery, those would be some orders I'd totally ignore and not set up for because the chances of it happening is negligible that it's not worth sacrificing other strategies to "hope" the 2 Look cards come out on turn 7 and you have 2 Look cards you can play.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Kwasny
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Hahma wrote:
But yeah, I think you can still use the first Look to sight the landmark, but it has to be the Radio Operator's dog tag action (not always conveniently there when you need it) and then you can use the second Look to trigger the arty. You should still be able to take the Look actions with both of those Look cards.


Why would it require the Operator's dog tag action? I agree that the player can use the Look action normally, so why couldn't he just name the Operator as one of his soldiers using the Look action? On the first Look action, the Operator would be one of the allowed soldiers making a Sight attempt - sighting the Landmark. Then on the second Look card, resolve the artillery first, then take your Look actions normally.

We played that the artillery fire landed automatically on turn 7 in the scenario where it is the victory condition. Any other use of artillery during that scenario required normal procedures.

But I agree with the original concerns...the German player knows it will land on turn 7 and simply makes sure he is not on a Landmark on turn 7.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg
United States
Lowell
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mvkwasny wrote:
Hahma wrote:
But yeah, I think you can still use the first Look to sight the landmark, but it has to be the Radio Operator's dog tag action (not always conveniently there when you need it) and then you can use the second Look to trigger the arty. You should still be able to take the Look actions with both of those Look cards.


Why would it require the Operator's dog tag action? I agree that the player can use the Look action normally, so why couldn't he just name the Operator as one of his soldiers using the Look action? On the first Look action, the Operator would be one of the allowed soldiers making a Sight attempt - sighting the Landmark. Then on the second Look card, resolve the artillery first, then take your Look actions normally.

We played that the artillery fire landed automatically on turn 7 in the scenario where it is the victory condition. Any other use of artillery during that scenario required normal procedures.

But I agree with the original concerns...the German player knows it will land on turn 7 and simply makes sure he is not on a Landmark on turn 7.


Well if the balloon says "up to 3 soldiers may sight enemy soldiers" I didn't think it would allow the Radio Operator to sight a Landmark because it's not an enemy soldier as listed as an allowable action in the balloon. Maybe they still can sight a Landmark with it, but I didn't really know based on the wording.

I agree that it should land on turn 7 automatically. Just nee keep the Radio Operator alive.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Kwasny
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
That's a good point, hadn't thought of that. But then it really would make it almost impossible to use artillery.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg
United States
Lowell
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well that's like using your leader's Hold ability. You have to play a Hide card with his dog tag so he can perform a Hide action and use Hold for it. It's not always easy to pull off.

Regarding the Artillery and needing the Radio Operator's tag card to sight the Landmark, I agree that it makes it really difficult to pull and part of why I thought being able to sight a normal square instead of just landmarks would make artillery a little bit more useable, even if not much more.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sgt. Hulka
msg tools
Hahma wrote:

Well if the balloon says "up to 3 soldiers may sight enemy soldiers" I didn't think it would allow the Radio Operator to sight a Landmark because it's not an enemy soldier as listed as an allowable action in the balloon.


Wow. That's a good point, and that sucks.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew DiGregorio
United States
West Babylon
New York
flag msg tools
badge
I'm a scary clown!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
i can see your point, but i dont know that i'd play artillery that way.

I guess i'd like to see an official answer, but i think its intended to be just the playing of 2 LOOK cards that activates an artillery strike.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Kwasny
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
slyde wrote:

I guess i'd like to see an official answer, but i think its intended to be just the playing of 2 LOOK cards that activates an artillery strike.


I agree, I do wish there would be an official answer to explain how the Look cards need to be used, whether the Radioman needs to formally use a Look card to spot the Landmark, whether he needs a Look card with his Dog Tag, etc.

To be honest, I played it that as long as the Radioman could Sight the Landmark, he did not even use an action.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg
United States
Lowell
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well I agree that perhaps it should be okay to allow the Radio Operator to sight the landmark using a balloon action, otherwise it can be even more difficult. I don't see much of a point in having something as part of a scenario if it has a rare chance of occurrence, that's why I want to target regular squares too.

Perhaps the text for the balloon actions where it says to "sight enemy soldiers" or whatever came before the artillery rules and therefore made it impossible to go back and fix.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg
United States
Lowell
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Okay, well I apologize for starting a new thread on this subject as I just found another thread started by Walt talking about a similar thing.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/795488/calling-in-artill...

It looks like Jeff explained how things work, several posts down.

It seems that you are not supposed to "pre-sight" a Landmark, you are supposed to sight the landmark with your Radio Operator with the first Look card in the turn and then it falls on that Landmark after you play the second Look card in that same turn.

Regarding the sighting and calling arty on regular map squares, that will require a Field Radio in the Terrain set, where you can do a Look, Look, Shoot so you sight the landmark with the first Look, adjust to an adjacent square with the second Look and then have it land by playing a Shoot action in the third phase. The regular artillery and radio with the RtC set is meant to be pretty much a very rare occurrence for sure on purpose. Basically by having to buy the Radio in a scenario, if you get the Orders for Registered Fire, as long as your Radio Operator is alive, the artillery falls in that landmark specified and you get those VP's, no Look actions are required to have that happen. So in that case with those orders, the radio is good to have and worth 20 VPs if you last to turn 7 with the operator alive.

I guess the only thing that I didn't see covered/answered in that thread is whether or not the Radio Operator had to use a Look action with his dog tag on it to sight the landmark when calling arty when the first Look card comes up. Or whether he can sight the landmark from the balloon action of another soldier's card. I'm still not sure about that one considering the balloon says to sight enemy soldiers specifically. That would be the one thing I would at this point like an official ruling on since I found the other thread with Jeffs rulings and explanation of the use of artillery.

I guess either way, unless I have the Registered Artillery orders, I'm not going to count on calling in artillery that game and choose the least expensive piece of arty. If the situation arises that it can be used then great, otherwise I won't think about it much and just give the radio to my leader since I'm going to try to keep him alive anyway and the opponent is going to try to kill him anyway whether he has the radio or not. Though I guess you can always give the radio to some soldier you don't care about and let him be a decoy to take shots away from your leader, but then again, the opponent might also realize the futility of counting on arty and leave that soldier alone.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Ambush!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If the bubble or box said, ..."may sight enemy targets.", it would clear up all the confusion here, but the use of the phrase, "...enemy soldiers", doesn't bother me when I realize that when Day of Days was first produced, there was no radio or targeting of Landmarks and all targets were referred to as soldiers by default. I personally can not apply the language that literally here when viewed from that perspective although I agree that it is an important distinction. But normal sighting rules do not require it and, JB stated that you need "to sight the Landmark with your Radio Operator"

The only time you'd normally perform a Look named-action is when you are drawing cards to affect initiative or when you are performing a Look action via a white box on that card. It should be difficult to accept that a normal bubble sighting action by any other soldier's Look card would not suffice also in this case, despite the use of the phrase "...enemy soldier" because no special mention of a named-action prerequisite is made by the scenario, right? Anyway, my gut tells me that the phrasing may be easily understood to also mean "...enemy target" instead.

With respect to the Radio Operator needing to survive until turn 7, technically doesn't the radio just drop onto the battlefield when a soldier dies (page 14 under the Hold section Designer's Notes might apply)? If so, then as long as you walk over to it and recover it before the enemy does then you only need one guy left alive to get those VPs. That makes it a tiny bit easier but even so, as you discovered already, off board artillery strikes are not meant to be a common occurrence on purpose.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg
United States
Lowell
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah, I can live with that ruling regarding the bubble text for sure, as I mentioned somewhere above that perhaps it was worded that way before RtC came out and can't be changed. It would make it more viable for sure and make it more exciting for the player with the Radio Operator and artillery. It's just that I've played other games where the text on cards is explicit to the letter and meant that way by the designers of the game. Regardless, we can play this how we like

Well if your radio operator does get killed before turn 7, you can still find it with another soldier. So any soldier with it equipped by turn 7 will allow for the VPs.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew DiGregorio
United States
West Babylon
New York
flag msg tools
badge
I'm a scary clown!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hahma wrote:

It seems that you are not supposed to "pre-sight" a Landmark, you are supposed to sight the landmark with your Radio Operator with the first Look card in the turn and then it falls on that Landmark after you play the second Look card in that same turn.


Wow, really?

thats good to know, but honestly that is not even close to how i (or many others) had interpreted it...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg
United States
Lowell
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
slyde wrote:
Hahma wrote:

It seems that you are not supposed to "pre-sight" a Landmark, you are supposed to sight the landmark with your Radio Operator with the first Look card in the turn and then it falls on that Landmark after you play the second Look card in that same turn.


Wow, really?

thats good to know, but honestly that is not even close to how i (or many others) had interpreted it...




Quote:
There are two ways to use artillery.

First the Orders allow for a Registered Artillery Strike. An observer team - (the Players Soldiers) - are sent out to observe a planned artillery attack. The Turn comes and the artillery attack occurs as part of a larger "Plan" - something a Battalion is doing and therefore outside the control of the Players.

Second "Called Fire" if you have a Radio and have Paid for Artillery you can "Call Fire" against landmarks. This is not Time on Target - that is something you need a dedicated Forward Observer who has a vehicle and Large Radios for Divisional communications networks. This is supporting fire or final protective fire from a section of Mortars (typically) or a assigned battery of on call medium artillery (rarely).

These can fire against Landmarks (positions that are worth artillery).

The Hasty Positions introduces a Field Telephone. It can Sight Landmarks and then with a second Sight action adjust the fire to a connected Map Square. This allows for pre-sighted fire points where adjustments can be made.

Artillery usage against a enemy squad should be an exception rather than a normal use. When artillery fires it reveals it's location and unless they are sure of where the enemy guns are they should move positions. Artillery guys are way to lazy to move all that stored ammunition, re-lay the battery and entrench the security team just so they can drop a couple of rounds on a single soldier. They would have to brew a new pot of coffee. (I should talk - I was in the Navy - we bring our field kitchen and showers to every battle.)

Field telephones means that an organized fire network is in place and Arty is available for general usage. That is why I restrict Radio-Artillery as able to attack Landmarks and I allow Field Telephones to adjust artillery fire.

Once Artillery is available it can be used by a RADIO:

Play Two Look Actions Sight the Landmarks with the first and the Artillery Attacks with the second LOOK action.


With a Field Telephone:

Artillery is only available in TURNS that have two LOOK Phases.
Take a ("Sight Action") by the Field Telephone Operator - place a Spotted Marker on a Landmark.
Optional - Take a second ("Sight Action") to adjust Fire to a surrounding Map Square.
Take a ("Shoot Action") by the Field Telephone Operator to Attack the Spotted Landmark or Map Square.

The Field Telephone is much more nimble with artillery - but it is em-placed at a location and cannot move. The Operator must conduct all the actions.



The above is what Jeff posted in the other thread I linked a few posts back. I bolded the part relating to the Radio and Artillery. When I had played it last weekend, I had sighted Landmarks earlier in the game and used balloon actions too to have the Radio Operator sight them. Seems like I wasn't doing it right as I guess you have to sight with the first Look action in a turn and the second Look action brings the Arty. So I guess it's like when he's sighting the landmark, that's the moment he's calling for the arty and then it comes with the next Look card played that turn, as it takes a little time to get there.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew DiGregorio
United States
West Babylon
New York
flag msg tools
badge
I'm a scary clown!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
thanks for that, greg.

i too had played it initially closer to how you first played it.

But thinking it over, i think i will prefer the new way. It doesnt force you to telegraph your target square TURNS in advance...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg
United States
Lowell
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
No problem Andrew. I agree that it is more of a surprise when you sight the landmark with the first Look action and then have it rain down with the second in the same turn. If they are back to back Look actions, the enemy might not be able to move out of that landmark unless the second Look is also a Move. But it would be fun to see them scramble away if nothing else, though Pinned soldiers aren't going to do much scrambling away.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.