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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » General

Subject: Rest rss

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Theis Magle
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I am 1. edition player. I only have little experience with 2. edition. It is to soon for me to say if its as great as most people are saying. What I think is one of the bigest difrent from 1. ed. to 2. ed. is the action REST. Some will say, that I do not understand anything, but I belive, that when people are geting experience with this game the bigest change is rest action. That will be a bigger change over knock out, LOS, classes, powerdice and others changes.

Why:

1. edition you moved around with your speed saving fatigue. You only used your fatigue, when you made a skill, need that crusel extra move, or that last one damage. You saved your fatigue using little as posible (untill you have a lot of vitality potions) or use it all to clear a new revealed area. If you have use 1 or 2 fatigue you would not use the time to rest or drink a vitality potion. You played until you fatigue was 1 or 0 then you get it to full.

2. edition (when we have learn the game ) it is way different. Heroes speed and move action is only used when you whant to move as fare as posible (1. edition run action). In this case you you choise move action move your speed then rest action and move your fatigue.

When you whant to move and attack. You make a rest action and move your fatigue then attack (sometimes it is not the case with Ashrian)

The "move with fatigue and rest way" of moving have many advange over a normal move action.

1. The obvious is when a hero have more fatigue than speed. That is 3 out of 8 heroes. But even the one hero Ashrian that have speed higher than fatigue will many times choise the "move with fatigue and rest way"

2. OL have a trap card, that end a heroes move action. If you use "move with fatigue and rest way" your are Immune to that card. There are at least 2 of these card in the OL 15 card deck.

3. you whant to use a skill that cost fatigue and it is ok to move only 2 hexes.

"move with fatigue and rest way" is good, but the hero have to be at full fatigue at the start of every turn (but that is what "move with fatigue and rest way" do - give you full fatigue for your next turn).

1. ed. you wast using every fatigue in the begining to get a big advange and kill as much in the new reveal area. Then going around on zero fatigue until you have the peace to get your fatigue back.

2. ed. you could do the same and of course many times it will happen, that you want to make those 2 attack, so you can not rest in the same turn. But the advantage of "move with fatigue and rest way" is so powerfull, that you will try to avoid getting your fatigue down if you don't rest the same round. Saving fatigue when you don't rest till right moment to make the game winning punch.

Maybe I am very wrong. This is not writen by experience, but only a my thinking of the game. Only gametesting can tell (and of course smarter people than me )

Do you think I have a point?

Do you also think it is a little strange the rest with out a change for OL to interupt or is it good for the game?

I think the rest without a interrupted opportunity for the OL is made be cause of game speed and because fatigue is need for the skilles, and with out vitality potion except for a very few in the tresure card, heroes need a save way of restoring there fatigue.

In my game group we used a lot of time to discuss when it was the right time for resting. But the main time consumer in that discussion was "is it safe from spawn". 2. edition don't have that "problem", so I don't think it would slow the game that much. But it would make heroes use a lot more "move with fatigue and rest way". Don't have the experience to say, if it would be to easy for the OL to keep heroes away from fatigue and by that a lot of there skilles.

What do you think. Could rest work like it did in 1. ed. (rest you get full fatigue in your next round if you don't get damage from your going in rest till you next turn)?
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Christopher Scatliff
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Sorry, I'm having a bit of trouble understanding some of what you're saying, but I think you're making the same mistake our group first did. When you take a Rest action, you don't immediately get your fatigue back. Instead, you put a hero marker on your character. Then, only when you've finished all of your actions, right at the end of your turn, do you recover fatigue. You don't get to rest and then immediately use the recovered fatigue to move.
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Chris McDonald
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Smoo wrote:
Sorry, I'm having a bit of trouble understanding some of what you're saying, but I think you're making the same mistake our group first did. When you take a Rest action, you don't immediately get your fatigue back. Instead, you put a hero marker on your character. Then, only when you've finished all of your actions, right at the end of your turn, do you recover fatigue. You don't get to rest and then immediately use the recovered fatigue to move.


Yes, but you can still move with fatigue every turn, right? Move with fatigue, then rest. Next turn you are back at full and can do it again.

The OP's concern seems to be that rather than a way of pushing your character beyond his limits, fatigue movement will be the default way to move, since it avoids certain overlord cards that cancel move actions and it lets several characters move faster than they otherwise could.

I guess the counter argument is that doing this prevents you from using any powers that cost fatigue?
 
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Theis Magle
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Smoo wrote:
Sorry, I'm having a bit of trouble understanding some of what you're saying, but I think you're making the same mistake our group first did. When you take a Rest action, you don't immediately get your fatigue back. Instead, you put a hero marker on your character. Then, only when you've finished all of your actions, right at the end of your turn, do you recover fatigue. You don't get to rest and then immediately use the recovered fatigue to move.

My english is fare from perfect I know.

I know you get fatigue back (or removed as is the case in 2. ed) at the end of your turn.

The trick is that you start with full fatigue (zero fatigue). then you spend 4 fatigue to move, make a rest action, make a attack end of turn you get rested to full fatigue.

Next round you move 2 with fatigue use 2 fatigue on a skill, make a rest action, attack action and end of turn you get full fatigue.

and so on. So to do this you have to start at full fatigue (as I try to explan in my first attempt.)
 
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Christopher Scatliff
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Yeah, I don't think using fatigue + rest for movement will be better than just moving. I haven't looked closely at the campaign skill cards, but all of the most useful starter skill cards required a fatigue to activate.
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Only in the Basic game do you do this a lot. In the campaign or Epic variant, you have a lot of skills that cost fatigue to use, so always FatigueMove+Rest isn't a very smart option. And there are some "1st level" skills that use fatigue so you may want to keep the fatigue for those as well.

Also, we made the same mistake as Smoo, thinking we immediately got fatigue back and not at the end of the turn. That changes a few strategies...

-shnar
 
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Jeremy Lennert
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How does having skills that cost fatigue change this? If you aren't resting, then you aren't getting your fatigue back, so you'll run out and won't be able to use those skills. If you're using fatigue to move normally, then spending fatigue on skills cuts into your movement, but you always have the fatigue available. If anything, that would seem to make this more attractive.

The only general reason I see to do a move instead of a rest is when you need a quick burst to do something right now (or if your speed is higher than your stamina, of course). The long-term efficiency doesn't get any worse just because there are other demands for fatigue; in fact, if anything, it gets better.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Antistone wrote:
How does having skills that cost fatigue change this?

If you have a speed of 4 and fatigue of 4, but have a melee attack skill that costs 2 and the monster is 3 spaces away, you can't move fatigue move to it attack then rest. You would need to Move, 2 Fatigue + Attack.

-shnar
 
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Theis Magle
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Smoo wrote:
Yeah, I don't think using fatigue + rest for movement will be better than just moving. I haven't looked closely at the campaign skill cards, but all of the most useful starter skill cards required a fatigue to activate.

but for 3 of the 8 heroes. They have 1 fatigue more than it movement. So the can fatigue move the same as there speed use 1 fatigue on a skill and get full fatigue in the end of the round.

Even if you have the same speed and fatigue you should move with fatigue: Hero speed 4, fatigue 4. Hero will use a skill that cost 1 fatigue and 1 action every turn and move as fare as posible.

With Move action + skill action
1. round: moveed 4, 3 fatigue left
2. round: moveed 8, 2 fatigue left
3. round: moveed 12, 1 fatigue left
4. round: moveed 12, 4 fatigue (because here you have to make a rest action insted of move action, so you have fatigue for your next skill action.

With Rest + skill action
1. round: moveed 3, 4 fatigue
2. round: moveed 6, 4 fatigue
3. round: moveed 9, 4 fatigue
4. round: moveed 12, 4 fatigue

You have the advange of always being at full fatigue and advoiding OL card, but of course the disadvange of not being as fare on round 3. But if it is importen you reach 12 movement in round 3, you can just use move action in round 3 and use you fatigue to get to the same point. So Rest can convert till the same as if you had used move action. But if you used move action you can not convert to the Rest benifits.

 
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Jon Ben
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Antistone wrote:
The only general reason I see to do a move instead of a rest is when you need a quick burst to do something right now (or if your speed is higher than your stamina, of course).


You have to compare your speed to the amount of fatigue you're willing to spend on movement. This is less than your stamina if you're using fatigue for other powers.
 
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Theis Magle
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shnar wrote:
Antistone wrote:
How does having skills that cost fatigue change this?

If you have a speed of 4 and fatigue of 4, but have a melee attack skill that costs 2 and the monster is 3 spaces away, you can't move fatigue move to it attack then rest. You would need to Move, 2 Fatigue + Attack.

-shnar

You have a point there. I have already said that there will be situation where you should start using your fatigue with out resting. But I belive, that it should be very importen to do it in the giving situation. If it is not. Then you should do something else.
 
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Jeremy Lennert
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shnar wrote:
If you have a speed of 4 and fatigue of 4, but have a melee attack skill that costs 2 and the monster is 3 spaces away, you can't move fatigue move to it attack then rest. You would need to Move, 2 Fatigue + Attack.

Right, that's the "quick burst" example. The stuff you want to do that turn adds up to more than 2 actions, so you need to "borrow" from a future action if you want to do it (by spending fatigue and not getting it back).

It's the same if your skill is free but the monster is 5 spaces away; you need to move AND spend fatigue to get in range with an action left to attack.

But in either case, that's not sustainable. You can, and probably should, do it in select circumstances. But it can't be your standard strategy, because you'll run out of fatigue.
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Theis Magle
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Antistone wrote:
shnar wrote:
If you have a speed of 4 and fatigue of 4, but have a melee attack skill that costs 2 and the monster is 3 spaces away, you can't move fatigue move to it attack then rest. You would need to Move, 2 Fatigue + Attack.

Right, that's the "quick burst" example. The stuff you want to do that turn adds up to more than 2 actions, so you need to "borrow" from a future action if you want to do it (by spending fatigue and not getting it back).

It's the same if your skill is free but the monster is 5 spaces away; you need to move AND spend fatigue to get in range with an action left to attack.

But in either case, that's not sustainable. You can, and probably should, do it in select circumstances. But it can't be your standard strategy, because you'll run out of fatigue.

Well put!
 
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Jon Ben
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It seems to me that you're going to have to choose between dead monsters or having full fatigue at the end of every turn. The default turn is doing as much damage as possible and rest does not do damage it facilitates damage so it will be done when needed.

The OP's point is valuable but I remain unconvinced that I'm going to choose this style of play, over attack actions, just to avoid a couple of overlord cards.
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Jeremy Lennert
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The OP isn't suggesting that you rest instead of an attack action, but that you rest instead of a move action.
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Jon Ben
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You could attack again instead of resting.

I agree that this is different from 1ed and an important observation which will certainly influence many decisions in the game. However killing monsters sooner is better that way they don't hurt you with their pointy bits. So if I have to be unsustainable for a turn while I attack twice that may well be better than resting. It will depend on the situation for sure.
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I agree if you start your turn with full fatigue and all you want to do is move and attack using your fatigue and resting sounds a like a decent plan.

What I don't agree with is that this is going to be the norm. My guess is you are going to want to use some of those other options available that cost an action(search tokens, opening doors, attacking twice, learned skills) and that sometimes those are going to cost fatigue leaving you less than fully rested at the start of your next turn. I think once you get going in an encounter you will be trying to find moments to rest and not just using it every turn.
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Theis Magle
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JonBen wrote:
You could attack again instead of resting.

I agree that this is different from 1ed and an important observation which will certainly influence many decisions in the game. However killing monsters sooner is better that way they don't hurt you with their pointy bits. So if I have to be unsustainable for a turn while I attack twice that may well be better than resting. It will depend on the situation for sure.

You should read Antistones replies one more time. If you understand them you will see, that there are no conflick between what you write and my point. Yes sometimes, you move with fatigue and attack 2 times. But that do not change, that you can use rest action insted of move action (when you have full fatigue - and you benefit from it).
 
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Theis Magle
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quartersmostly wrote:
I agree if you start your turn with full fatigue and all you want to do is move and attack using your fatigue and resting sounds a like a decent plan.

What I don't agree with is that this is going to be the norm. My guess is you are going to want to use some of those other options available that cost an action(search tokens, opening doors, attacking twice, learned skills) and that sometimes those are going to cost fatigue leaving you less than fully rested at the start of your next turn. I think once you get going in an encounter you will be trying to find moments to rest and not just using it every turn.

This is a real point that only experience can tell. Fatigue can been seen as 1 extra action. So with full fatigue you have 2 action + 1 action your fatigue.

When you use the extra action (e.g. Move with fatigue and attack 2 time) you have to use 1 action to get it back with rest.

Speciel with this extra action is, that you can split it up over different turns (e.g. Turn 1, move 1 extra. Turn 2, move 3 extra).

Your point as I understand it, if you use 2 fatigue to get 2 attacks you will not have the time to use rest to get you on full fatigue again. Therefore you can not make the rest = move action. Maybe you are right, but I don't think so. If your are down with 2 fatigue I believe, that you would fine a time soon where you only moved what left of your fatigue and then rested.

Point you would like to have the extra action as backup as often as posible. Because rest is safe, that should be no problem.
 
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Joe Rickard
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TheisMagle wrote:
JonBen wrote:
You could attack again instead of resting.

I agree that this is different from 1ed and an important observation which will certainly influence many decisions in the game. However killing monsters sooner is better that way they don't hurt you with their pointy bits. So if I have to be unsustainable for a turn while I attack twice that may well be better than resting. It will depend on the situation for sure.

You should read Antistones replies one more time. If you understand them you will see, that there are no conflick between what you write and my point. Yes sometimes, you move with fatigue and attack 2 times. But that do not change, that you can use rest action insted of move action (when you have full fatigue - and you benefit from it).


Right when you have full fatigue, however you aren't likely to start your turn with full fatigue unless you rest the turn prior as you should probably be using those skills you have learned that require fatigue.
 
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Theis Magle
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quartersmostly wrote:
TheisMagle wrote:
JonBen wrote:
You could attack again instead of resting.

I agree that this is different from 1ed and an important observation which will certainly influence many decisions in the game. However killing monsters sooner is better that way they don't hurt you with their pointy bits. So if I have to be unsustainable for a turn while I attack twice that may well be better than resting. It will depend on the situation for sure.

You should read Antistones replies one more time. If you understand them you will see, that there are no conflick between what you write and my point. Yes sometimes, you move with fatigue and attack 2 times. But that do not change, that you can use rest action insted of move action (when you have full fatigue - and you benefit from it).


Right when you have full fatigue, however you aren't likely to start your turn with full fatigue unless you rest the turn prior as you should probably be using those skills you have learned that require fatigue.

See my other reply. Short IMO yes you will, because you would rest soon after you used fatigue. only experience would clear this.
 
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Joe Rickard
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I think that you are looking at this change and isolating it, sticking it into 1e and coming to the conclusion that there is a problem. In 1e fatigue was mostly used for movement. The power dice were nice too but so many monsters died easily on one hit that it often wasn't necessary to use.

In 2e so many of the skills use fatigue and I think once a game is a few quests into a campaign or using Epic Play and you have a few skills available players will be reserving their fatigue more for skills. This doesn't mean you won't be resting a lot,or that they won't be using fatigue to move. In fact I agree that the rest action will be used much more than it was in 1e. I just don't think you will be replacing the movement action with the rest action as much as you would in 1e if you plugged in the new rules for resting.

But like you said time will tell. Come Friday I hope to have some experience to back up my claims.
 
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jeremie geggus
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quartersmostly wrote:
I think that you are looking at this change and isolating it, sticking it into 1e and coming to the conclusion that there is a problem. In 1e fatigue was mostly used for movement. The power dice were nice too but so many monsters died easily on one hit that it often wasn't necessary to use.

In 2e so many of the skills use fatigue and I think once a game is a few quests into a campaign or using Epic Play and you have a few skills available players will be reserving their fatigue more for skills. This doesn't mean you won't be resting a lot,or that they won't be using fatigue to move. In fact I agree that the rest action will be used much more than it was in 1e. I just don't think you will be replacing the movement action with the rest action as much as you would in 1e if you plugged in the new rules for resting.

But like you said time will tell. Come Friday I hope to have some experience to back up my claims.


Nailed it.

I've been playing 2e for about two weeks. I've played with several different groups, who've used wildy different playstyles and came from varying degrees of familiarity with 1st ed.

The extra movement provided by suffering fatigue is useful and therefore used a lot... Often to the Overlords advantage. Getting your players to max out fatigue early on spare movement means they'll have less to spend on skills later. This has been tripping up players who were very familiar with 1e. They're just not used to spending fatigue on skills this way... yet. They spend a lot of time trying to finesse their movement to dance around obstacles and enemies. When it comes time to actually kill those enemies (in the traditional 1e "one-shot-kill" style) they are often thwarted by the now-tougher enemies, and the new defense dice. Their hard-thought tactical extra "fatigue movement" is often negated by 2e's new smaller maps, and looser line-of sight. Move all you want, you're almost never 100% safe.

The savvy Overlord can stack his deck, over time, with powers that use the heroes lack of fatigue against them- often causing them to suffer more damage and wasting turns they would rather spend running and fighting by resting, instead.
 
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jeremie geggus
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quartersmostly wrote:
I think that you are looking at this change and isolating it, sticking it into 1e and coming to the conclusion that there is a problem. In 1e fatigue was mostly used for movement. The power dice were nice too but so many monsters died easily on one hit that it often wasn't necessary to use.

In 2e so many of the skills use fatigue and I think once a game is a few quests into a campaign or using Epic Play and you have a few skills available players will be reserving their fatigue more for skills. This doesn't mean you won't be resting a lot,or that they won't be using fatigue to move. In fact I agree that the rest action will be used much more than it was in 1e. I just don't think you will be replacing the movement action with the rest action as much as you would in 1e if you plugged in the new rules for resting.

But like you said time will tell. Come Friday I hope to have some experience to back up my claims.


Nailed it.

I've been playing 2e for about two weeks. I've played with several different groups, who've used wildy different playstyles and came from varying degrees of familiarity with 1st ed.

The extra movement provided by suffering fatigue is useful and therefore used a lot... Often to the Overlords advantage. Getting your players to max out fatigue early on spare movement means they'll have less to spend on skills later. This has been tripping up players who were very familiar with 1e. They're just not used to spending fatigue on skills this way... yet. They spend a lot of time trying to finesse their movement to dance around obstacles and enemies. When it comes time to actually kill those enemies (in the traditional 1e "one-shot-kill" style) they are often thwarted by the now-tougher enemies, and the new defense dice. Their hard-thought tactical extra "fatigue movement" is often negated by 2e's new smaller maps, and looser line-of sight. Move all you want, you're almost never 100% safe.

The savvy Overlord can stack his deck, over time, with powers that use the heroes lack of fatigue against them- often causing them to suffer more damage and wasting turns they would rather spend running and fighting by resting, instead.
 
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TheisMagle wrote:
Point you would like to have the extra action as backup as often as posible.
Conversely I would also like 1 more action already invested into the board state "as often possible". Yes a saved action helps me respond in the future. But to have 1 turn earlier an extra attack/move/objective already done could save me more than 1 action in the future. It's situational, not trivial.
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