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Subject: Bankrupcy and Ambassadors rss

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Eric Bettan
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Cote St Luc
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If a player goes bankrupt and is out of the game, does he score for his ambassadors?

If not, does the player get the traitor card?

Thanks in advance!
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Daniel Hammond
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I would say yes, the question is as he is putting his stuff away does he also remove his diplomat from all people he has relationships with. Probably, which means the cubes have to return, which could affect other peoples upkeep (although I would say it is returned at the end of upkeep, like a graveyard effect).
 
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Trevor Schadt
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Carnage994 wrote:
If a player goes bankrupt and is out of the game, does he score for his ambassadors?
I would say yes, although as Daniel goes on to say, the other players' ambassadors would be returned to them. When during the phase it happens, though, is up for discussion. I could see it happening in three ways:
1) It happens before anyone else does their income, upkeep, or production. The most punishing to the other players.
2) It happens in player turn order, i.e., the start player does their upkeep and production, then player 2, and so on, and only players after the one going bankrupt have to deal with the decreased production. The most orderly, and gives a bit of extra oomph to start player.
3) It happens after everyone else does their income, upkeep and production. The most generous to the other players, and as such, I can only assume not the one that the designer had in mind.

Touko, any chance we can get an official ruling here? The rules don't say anything -- at least, not from my reading of them -- about this.

Carnage994 wrote:
If not, does the player get the traitor card?
I would say that regardless, no, the player going bankrupt would not receive the Traitor card. Aside from the "adding insult to injury" factor, the Traitor card is only gained "whenever you attack a player and thus break the Diplomatic relations" (English rulebook, p.11). Having your Civilization collapse is not an "attack" and therefore the Traitor card would not come into play. (It's not the act of returning the Ambassadors that triggers the Traitor, it's the attack, and that's not happening in this case.)
 
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Daniel Hammond
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ryudoowaru wrote:
Carnage994 wrote:
If a player goes bankrupt and is out of the game, does he score for his ambassadors?
I would say yes, although as Daniel goes on to say, the other players' ambassadors would be returned to them. When during the phase it happens, though, is up for discussion. I could see it happening in three ways:
1) It happens before anyone else does their income, upkeep, or production. The most punishing to the other players.
2) It happens in player turn order, i.e., the start player does their upkeep and production, then player 2, and so on, and only players after the one going bankrupt have to deal with the decreased production. The most orderly, and gives a bit of extra oomph to start player.
3) It happens after everyone else does their income, upkeep and production. The most generous to the other players, and as such, I can only assume not the one that the designer had in mind. ;)

Touko, any chance we can get an official ruling here? The rules don't say anything -- at least, not from my reading of them -- about this.

Carnage994 wrote:
If not, does the player get the traitor card?
I would say that regardless, no, the player going bankrupt would not receive the Traitor card. Aside from the "adding insult to injury" factor, the Traitor card is only gained "whenever you attack a player and thus break the Diplomatic relations" (English rulebook, p.11). Having your Civilization collapse is not an "attack" and therefore the Traitor card would not come into play. (It's not the act of returning the Ambassadors that triggers the Traitor, it's the attack, and that's not happening in this case.)


1 and 2 cause others to be punished due to another player's collapse. That really isn't in the spirit of the game. I think it has to be 3, you shouldn't retroactively punish other players (even worse some players and not others, if you did turn order) for the economic collapse of others.
 
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Dave
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dlhammond wrote:
I would say yes, the question is as he is putting his stuff away does he also remove his diplomat from all people he has relationships with. Probably, which means the cubes have to return, which could affect other peoples upkeep (although I would say it is returned at the end of upkeep, like a graveyard effect).

I agree with this. The order of events in the rules for a player whose civilization is collapsing during the upkeep phase is:

1) his game ends,
2) he counts his score (I assume including ambassadors), and
3) he returns all his game components to the game box.

During step (3), other players' ambassadors on the eliminated player's board must go somewhere. I believe the cubes should go to the graveyard. The upkeep phase doesn't happen in turn order (unless I've missed something), so receiving the returned cube to the graveyard--as in combat--seems most appropriate. And there's a price for having diplomatic relations with a collapsing civilization: losing one VP for the returning ambassador tile.
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Eric Bettan
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Failing an official answer, I find that your reasoning makes a lot of sense David. Thanks to everyone for the input!
 
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