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Subject: Two players boarding each other. rss

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Guy McCann
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I wasn't sure how likely this was, until it happened. Player A in his sloop was doing quite well until he had a bad luck draw-Seamanship roll that cost him 2 masts. Player B, also in his sloop, was having an atrocious start and had no money and no successful merchant raids and decided that Player A got too close with his damaged ship and decided he could use the assets that Player A had... so he makes his move.

Successful scouting happens and combat commenced. After the first round of Shooting, they both declare they will board (both had a Leadership of 2 with the same crew, just that Player A figured it's cheaper to win B's ship if he wants to come at him.

Question is, since I can't find it in the rules or here, is there a need to roll a Seamanship contest for this or just go straight into Crew Combat?
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Technically, yes, you would still roll. But since the outcome is the same no matter which side wins, it's a moot point and you could skip it. Also, it doesn't matter who initiated the boarding, swivel guns on both sides would fire.

-shnar
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Guy McCann
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Thanks. I kind of figured that would be the outcome, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.
 
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Carsten Jorgensen
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No, you have to roll.

And that is because you could both fail the roll. Then no boarding would happen and a new round would begin. The attacker might then want to reconsider if boarding is a good idea (since the defender also wanted to do that, he might have some good cards in his hand just for that).

And to the actual battle you had - I think you missed a rule. Player A was in a sloop already with two hits to his mast, right? With his mast destroyed he would be down to 1 seamanship die (any +1 to seamanship happens before that so it is always just 1 seamanship die when ones mast is destroyed). Also when your mast is destroyed you "can only select the shoot action". So player A could never have choosen "board" in the battle (or flee). (p.14 right coloumn)

You can still scout, but not a good idea if it is for a ship (I know it was B who did it here, so that is fine of course). Merchant raids are however impossible with any destroyed locations on your ship.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Tretiak wrote:
shnar wrote:
Technically, yes, you would still roll. But since the outcome is the same no matter which side wins, it's a moot point and you could skip it. Also, it doesn't matter who initiated the boarding, swivel guns on both sides would fire.

-shnar


Of course it matters!laugh

The phase might still occur but can you then tell who is boarding who? That's a pretty important detail IMHO...

is it? Once one player is 'boarded', it moves to Crew Combat and then whomever wins the Crew Combat wins the ships, regardless of who boarded.

Randor20 does have a point that both players could fail the roll completely, but all that does is make it so next turn starts, they both roll again. If they fail again, rinse-repeat. Eventually, someone will succeed and then Crew Combat begins. So technically this could give the option to one of the players to change his mind, but usually they don't (since they wouldn't have boarded in the first place). But then again, everyone's human and humans are the least predictable things on this planet, so maybe you should roll every turn.

-shnar
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Carsten Jorgensen
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I don't think it is that rear. Or at least it shouldn't be. If I am the attacker and boarding - and my opponent also choose to board, I'll sure re-think my plan next turn if we both fail the roll. Most likely he will have a good hand for crew combat (or I missed something - read his leadership wrong or checked the wrong location for crew). Unless of course he is bluffing or just acting like a crazy pirate choosing his actions at random (bluffing with that sure would be crazy too! - even if it might be in character).

Also if both fail their boarding roll, one of the players might want to use grapeling hocks to re-roll some of his dice (for the fear that the other player would change his mind in the next round). At least that is worth some gold, but it could also make the difference of whether or not the winner wants to stay one more turn at sea - for example to do a merchant raid (it is relevant for both players since you can plunder special weapons after crew combat).

Just to allow this it is much simpler to roll. It doesn't take that long.

Tretiak wrote:
Of course it matters!laugh

The phase might still occur but can you then tell who is boarding who? That's a pretty important detail IMHO...


I think he just wants to know for the fun of it.
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Guy McCann
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Randor20 wrote:
No, you have to roll.

And that is because you could both fail the roll. Then no boarding would happen and a new round would begin. The attacker might then want to reconsider if boarding is a good idea (since the defender also wanted to do that, he might have some good cards in his hand just for that).

And to the actual battle you had - I think you missed a rule. Player A was in a sloop already with two hits to his mast, right? With his mast destroyed he would be down to 1 seamanship die (any +1 to seamanship happens before that so it is always just 1 seamanship die when ones mast is destroyed). Also when your mast is destroyed you "can only select the shoot action". So player A could never have choosen "board" in the battle (or flee). (p.14 right coloumn)

You can still scout, but not a good idea if it is for a ship (I know it was B who did it here, so that is fine of course). Merchant raids are however impossible with any destroyed locations on your ship.


The bolded part, wouldn't happen. A sloop has 4 masts starting off, so the 2 hits only takes him down to 2 and then Player B (with his fresh sloop of 4 masts) would have a +1 Seamanship roll. At no point did any cannon damage take place (the rolled superbly there), so the only prior damage was to Player A's sloop masts.

I do see the logic behind the rolling, so you do have the option to change your mind should you suddenly get the feeling things won't go well for you. Thanks for the advice!
 
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Kyle
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Mojobacca wrote:
Randor20 wrote:
No, you have to roll.

And that is because you could both fail the roll. Then no boarding would happen and a new round would begin. The attacker might then want to reconsider if boarding is a good idea (since the defender also wanted to do that, he might have some good cards in his hand just for that).

And to the actual battle you had - I think you missed a rule. Player A was in a sloop already with two hits to his mast, right? With his mast destroyed he would be down to 1 seamanship die (any +1 to seamanship happens before that so it is always just 1 seamanship die when ones mast is destroyed). Also when your mast is destroyed you "can only select the shoot action". So player A could never have choosen "board" in the battle (or flee). (p.14 right coloumn)

You can still scout, but not a good idea if it is for a ship (I know it was B who did it here, so that is fine of course). Merchant raids are however impossible with any destroyed locations on your ship.


The bolded part, wouldn't happen. A sloop has 4 masts starting off, so the 2 hits only takes him down to 2 and then Player B (with his fresh sloop of 4 masts) would have a +1 Seamanship roll. At no point did any cannon damage take place (the rolled superbly there), so the only prior damage was to Player A's sloop masts.

I do see the logic behind the rolling, so you do have the option to change your mind should you suddenly get the feeling things won't go well for you. Thanks for the advice!
It looks like you're mixing up Maneuverability with Masts.

The Mast value is determined by the ship's Toughness along with its Hull value.

Maneuverability is a completely separate value that isn't tracked with a cube on the player board. It only comes into play during Merchant Raids (vs. Escape icons) and when checking if you gain the Seamanship bonus when battling another ship (+1 die if Man. is 2 or more than the opposing ship).

A Sloop has a Toughness of only 2, so if it took 2 hits to masts during a battle it's crippled and cannot choose to board or flee; it can only shoot.
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Andy Leber
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I've never considered both players declaring the boarding option. Never really thought there was a point.

As the defender, if you want crew combat, and the attacker declares boarding, then he's done you a favor, and you might as well call for Cannons and get in another hit as he tries to board you.
 
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Holmes108 wrote:
I've never considered both players declaring the boarding option. Never really thought there was a point.

As the defender, if you want crew combat, and the attacker declares boarding, then he's done you a favor, and you might as well call for Cannons and get in another hit as he tries to board you.

But you didn't know he was going to board, and he didn't know you were going to board. Crafty devils, these buccaneers.

arrrharrrharrrh
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Carsten Jorgensen
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Holmes108 wrote:
I've never considered both players declaring the boarding option. Never really thought there was a point.

As the defender, if you want crew combat, and the attacker declares boarding, then he's done you a favor, and you might as well call for Cannons and get in another hit as he tries to board you.


Ahh yes... but if the defender wins that roll, boarding doesn't happen. And the attacker might take damage to crew and decide not to board next round. Or the defender wants to take the ship without any further damage (for any number of reasons).
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Guy McCann
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Woelf wrote:
Mojobacca wrote:
Randor20 wrote:
No, you have to roll.

And that is because you could both fail the roll. Then no boarding would happen and a new round would begin. The attacker might then want to reconsider if boarding is a good idea (since the defender also wanted to do that, he might have some good cards in his hand just for that).

And to the actual battle you had - I think you missed a rule. Player A was in a sloop already with two hits to his mast, right? With his mast destroyed he would be down to 1 seamanship die (any +1 to seamanship happens before that so it is always just 1 seamanship die when ones mast is destroyed). Also when your mast is destroyed you "can only select the shoot action". So player A could never have choosen "board" in the battle (or flee). (p.14 right coloumn)

You can still scout, but not a good idea if it is for a ship (I know it was B who did it here, so that is fine of course). Merchant raids are however impossible with any destroyed locations on your ship.


The bolded part, wouldn't happen. A sloop has 4 masts starting off, so the 2 hits only takes him down to 2 and then Player B (with his fresh sloop of 4 masts) would have a +1 Seamanship roll. At no point did any cannon damage take place (the rolled superbly there), so the only prior damage was to Player A's sloop masts.

I do see the logic behind the rolling, so you do have the option to change your mind should you suddenly get the feeling things won't go well for you. Thanks for the advice!
It looks like you're mixing up Maneuverability with Masts.

The Mast value is determined by the ship's Toughness along with its Hull value.

Maneuverability is a completely separate value that isn't tracked with a cube on the player board. It only comes into play during Merchant Raids (vs. Escape icons) and when checking if you gain the Seamanship bonus when battling another ship (+1 die if Man. is 2 or more than the opposing ship).

A Sloop has a Toughness of only 2, so if it took 2 hits to masts during a battle it's crippled and cannot choose to board or flee; it can only shoot.


It's amazing how many things one finds they are so sure are right, that they refuse to see they are actually wrong... thanks for pointing out another of my glaringly obvious misunderstandings.

I think I should curl up with some wine and read the rulebook again by candle light and absorb it instead of thinking I've still got it all down.
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Andy Leber
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Randor20 wrote:
Holmes108 wrote:
I've never considered both players declaring the boarding option. Never really thought there was a point.

As the defender, if you want crew combat, and the attacker declares boarding, then he's done you a favor, and you might as well call for Cannons and get in another hit as he tries to board you.


Ahh yes... but if the defender wins that roll, boarding doesn't happen. And the attacker might take damage to crew and decide not to board next round. Or the defender wants to take the ship without any further damage (for any number of reasons).


Yeah, that's true I guess. If the defender really wants a crew battle, I guess he should still be calling for boarding to make sure it happens.
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Robin Brown
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Sphere wrote:
Holmes108 wrote:
I've never considered both players declaring the boarding option. Never really thought there was a point.

As the defender, if you want crew combat, and the attacker declares boarding, then he's done you a favor, and you might as well call for Cannons and get in another hit as he tries to board you.

But you didn't know he was going to board, and he didn't know you were going to board. Crafty devils, these buccaneers.

arrrharrrharrrh


One of you will know as the original agressor has to decalre his action first
 
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Zbyszek Łebkowski
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Randor20 wrote:
I don't think it is that rear. Or at least it shouldn't be. If I am the attacker and boarding - and my opponent also choose to board, I'll sure re-think my plan next turn if we both fail the roll. Most likely he will have a good hand for crew combat (or I missed something - read his leadership wrong or checked the wrong location for crew). Unless of course he is bluffing or just acting like a crazy pirate choosing his actions at random (bluffing with that sure would be crazy too! - even if it might be in character).

Also if both fail their boarding roll, one of the players might want to use grapeling hocks to re-roll some of his dice (for the fear that the other player would change his mind in the next round). At least that is worth some gold, but it could also make the difference of whether or not the winner wants to stay one more turn at sea - for example to do a merchant raid (it is relevant for both players since you can plunder special weapons after crew combat).

Just to allow this it is much simpler to roll. It doesn't take that long.

Tretiak wrote:
Of course it matters!laugh

The phase might still occur but can you then tell who is boarding who? That's a pretty important detail IMHO...


I think he just wants to know for the fun of it.



That's a good point there Carsten. There is this small window of opportunity for faliure if it so happens tha both players choose the board action. However you cannot really fail a roll here(when you don't land any successes then the one with the higher roll numer wins). The only time when there would be no bording is at a tie.
And yes, if that happens one of the players may decide that they misjudged their opponent after all and decide to shoot/flee on their next turn.

Also, as Andy pointed out, if you know your opponent wants to board and you want to board as well, you should pretty much always choose the shoot action and try to do some damage before the boarding. Perhaps even eliminating all of his fight ready crew.
 
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Carsten Jorgensen
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axzze wrote:
That's a good point there Carsten. There is this small window of opportunity for faliure if it so happens tha both players choose the board action. However you cannot really fail a roll here(when you don't land any successes then the one with the higher roll numer wins). The only time when there would be no bording is at a tie.
And yes, if that happens one of the players may decide that they misjudged their opponent after all and decide to shoot/flee on their next turn.

Also, as Andy pointed out, if you know your opponent wants to board and you want to board as well, you should pretty much always choose the shoot action and try to do some damage before the boarding. Perhaps even eliminating all of his fight ready crew.


I'm afraid the bold part is not true. From the rules p.14 in the left coloumn under Seamanship contest: "If no Captains get any successes, no one wins - proceed to the next round."

So the rules about ties are only used if both captains roll the same number of successes, but with at least one success. And that makes it much more likely.

That said I agree that most times it would be best to choose "shoot" if the attacker is boarding.

Only in the special case where the defender is actually pretty sure to win a boarding action should he also choose that (the attacker was desperate to attack in the first place or he has been very unlucky, and boarding was now a last resort, since "flee" is so difficult). Or maybe the attackers ship cannot take any more damage. Or it is so damaged that he would just be attacked by someone before he gets to move again - then taking over the defenders ship would be his only option.
So basically if the attacker is desperate for any number of reasons there could be an idea in both choosing "board". Or if the defender has good cards for crew combat. And if it didn't take place the attacker should get a chance to re-think his strategy.
 
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Zbyszek Łebkowski
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Randor20 wrote:
axzze wrote:
That's a good point there Carsten. There is this small window of opportunity for faliure if it so happens tha both players choose the board action. However you cannot really fail a roll here(when you don't land any successes then the one with the higher roll numer wins). The only time when there would be no bording is at a tie.
And yes, if that happens one of the players may decide that they misjudged their opponent after all and decide to shoot/flee on their next turn.

Also, as Andy pointed out, if you know your opponent wants to board and you want to board as well, you should pretty much always choose the shoot action and try to do some damage before the boarding. Perhaps even eliminating all of his fight ready crew.


I'm afraid the bold part is not true. From the rules p.14 in the left coloumn under Seamanship contest: "If no Captains get any successes, no one wins - proceed to the next round."

So the rules about ties are only used if both captains roll the same number of successes, but with at least one success. And that makes it much more likely.



I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing that out!
 
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