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Subject: Sparkle Burst and melee? rss

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PhePhe B.
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We had an interesting situation come up in our game the other day and I thought I'd put it up to the group.
Here's what happened in a nutshell--

I was playing as Consul and managed to get the Glimmerdusk Ranger completely surrounded by kobolds. When it was her activation, she asked to use SparkleBurst. Now the Ranger attacks are typically missile attacks which means that there must be at least one empty (or occupied by a friendly) space in between the Ranger and her target. However, there's no rule that explicitly states that SparkleBurst can't be made on a melee attack. It seemed counter-intuitive, but I couldn't find an argument against her.What think you all?
 
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Kiren Maelwulf
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I don't see why you wouldn't be able to use SparkleBurst as a melee attack, but you would have to roll Attack rather than Dex. There is nothing stating it has to be used as a range ability. As for counter-intuitive, if you assume SparkleBurst is an enchantment placed upon weapons, there is little reason it couldn't be placed upon a dagger or sword.
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Timo Hohkala
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Yes, she just uses her ATT dice instead of DEX since missile requires the minimum range of atleast 1 square between the models.

I'm not sure if she'd be able to shoot some kobold beyond the ones surrounding her and then use her DEX asnormal.
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that Matt
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twibs wrote:
I'm not sure if she'd be able to shoot some kobold beyond the ones surrounding her and then use her DEX asnormal.

She can't. The keyword "Missile X" cannot be used when the model is adjacent to an enemy model, no matter what the target is. (Theme-wise, you need to have time and space to be able to prepare and fire your missile undisturbed.)

Rulebook p.31 wrote:
Missile X - This ability allows the model to attack an enemy up to X squares away, as long as the model is not adjacent to an enemy model. In addition, a model making a Missile attack must use their DEX attribute when attacking. A model may use any of its abilities or special actions using Missile X, unless specified otherwise.

FAQ p. 4 wrote:
Q: Is Missile X the only ranged effect that requires you to be at least one square away from an enemy?
A. Yes. Range X, Magic X, and Hookshot may all be used when adjacent to an enemy model.
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K K
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Yes, you could use Ranger's Sparkle Burst in Melee, as well as Flinger's Hot Pot, Ember Mage's Magma Strike and all other special attacks, which don't prohibit it.

All of them will use ATT. instead of Will or Dex though, which sometimes might be less effective.
 
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Chris Lawson
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tumorous wrote:
twibs wrote:
I'm not sure if she'd be able to shoot some kobold beyond the ones surrounding her and then use her DEX asnormal.

She can't. The keyword "Missile X" cannot be used when the model is adjacent to an enemy model, no matter what the target is. (Theme-wise, you need to have time and space to be able to prepare and fire your missile undisturbed.)

That's a good point. I incorrectly remembered the rule as saying that Missile could not target an adjacent model. It doesn't say that at all, it's as you say, you cannot use Missile if there is an adjacent model!
 
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Joe fife
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Kirenx wrote:
I don't see why you wouldn't be able to use SparkleBurst as a melee attack, but you would have to roll Attack rather than Dex. There is nothing stating it has to be used as a range ability. As for counter-intuitive, if you assume SparkleBurst is an enchantment placed upon weapons, there is little reason it couldn't be placed upon a dagger or sword.


Arguably, since "A Burst effect occurs as part of a ranged attack or ability," it can't be used in melee
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Kiren Maelwulf
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Konzik wrote:
Yes, you could use Ranger's Sparkle Burst in Melee, as well as Flinger's Hot Pot, Ember Mage's Magma Strike and all other special attacks, which don't prohibit it.

All of them will use ATT. instead of Will or Dex though, which sometimes might be less effective.


Actually, unless it is a change in the faq, magic attacks in the second ed. rulebook do not stat that they have the same no adjacent target penalty that missile attacks do, so Magma Strike would still use WILL on an adjacent enemy.

Also I think it has been suggested that Hot Pot is the model using it only as it has no range set to it and special abilities do not get to use characters range like special attacks do, but there has been no offical word on that yet on the SPM forums.
 
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Kiren Maelwulf
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Imriel wrote:
Kirenx wrote:
I don't see why you wouldn't be able to use SparkleBurst as a melee attack, but you would have to roll Attack rather than Dex. There is nothing stating it has to be used as a range ability. As for counter-intuitive, if you assume SparkleBurst is an enchantment placed upon weapons, there is little reason it couldn't be placed upon a dagger or sword.


Arguably, since "A Burst effect occurs as part of a ranged attack or ability," it can't be used in melee


Good point, and as with the Hot Pot issue, looks like something that could really use an offical answer.
 
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Kiren Maelwulf
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A correction on my end, I was thinking of Smoke Pot.
 
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I think there's no need for official answer, since it's all in the rulebook.

Burst occurs as a part of ranged attack or special ability - Smoke Pot is a special ability.

Magma Strike - can be used in Melee as a Magic Attack, since Magic can be used adjacent (Missile can't). But it can also be used in Melee as Melee - using ATT. value. It's a special attack, and special attacks may, but don't have to, use the model's abilities (which is f.e. Magic 8)

So, in summary - you can't target the second model with Sparkle Burst using Range, but you can target with it an adjacent enemy using ATT.
 
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Chris Lawson
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Konzik wrote:
I think there's no need for official answer, since it's all in the rulebook.

Burst occurs as a part of ranged attack or special ability - Smoke Pot is a special ability.

Magma Strike - can be used in Melee as a Magic Attack, since Magic can be used adjacent (Missile can't). But it can also be used in Melee as Melee - using ATT. value. It's a special attack, and special attacks may, but don't have to, use the model's abilities (which is f.e. Magic 8)

So, in summary - you can't target the second model with Sparkle Burst using Range, but you can target with it an adjacent enemy using ATT.

Concerning Sparkle Burst as a Melee attack, I also think there's no need for an official answer since it's all in the rulebook.

The point is, I come to the opposite opinion than you, that you cannot use Sparkle Burst as a Melee attack. Clearly there is some confusion in this area which is why a clarification is required by SPM.

Using Magma Strike as an example as to why you can use Sparkle Burst as a Melee attack is a bad example because these two Special Attacks are very different.

The difference is that Sparkle Burst includes BURST. You cannot use Sparkle Burst without BURST and you cannot use BURST without a ranged attack or ability. The rules seem clear on this, you even quote it in your post above but decide to ignore it for Sparkle Burst, "A Burst effect occurs as a part of ranged attack or ability". BURST must be used with a ranged attack, it cannot be used as a Melee attack.

Magma Strike doesn't have a ranged attack or area effect associated with it so it doesn't have to use either. It can be used with Melee. It can also be used with a ability such as MAGIC 8 if the Hero wishes,

Sparkle Burst does have an area effect associated with it so it must use it. It's all part of the Special Attack. Since it must use BURST, it must use it as part of a ranged attack.

At least, that is the way I currently see it.

Smoke Pot is another matter. I think the same applies to that concerning it must be used with MISSILE as a ranged attack but the problem I have is that Smoke Pot played this way is that it is rather pointless. To make it more useful it needs to be able to self-target or target friendly models, not enemy models.
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I think you are mistaken, Chris

Burst is an "ability", according to the rulebook - page 24. "Some abilities can hit multiple models...typically occur due to a special action or special attack being used." - and the rest of the chapter.

I have come to the conclusion now, that the first sentence in the description of Burst is meaningless - it's just flavor.

So I stand by my opinion.


Magma Strike example wasn't meant as comparison to Burst, but as an explanation to other questions above. Sorry, if I did not write that more clearly.


Also - I allow Smoke Pot to target anything, even ground hexes - that's what it is for - putting cover.
 
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Chris Lawson
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Konzik wrote:
I think you are mistaken, Chris

Burst is an "ability", according to the rulebook - page 24. "Some abilities can hit multiple models...typically occur due to a special action or special attack being used." - and the rest of the chapter.

I have come to the conclusion now, that the first sentence in the description of Burst is meaningless - it's just flavor.

So I stand by my opinion.

Magma Strike example wasn't meant as comparison to Burst, but as an explanation to other questions above. Sorry, if I did not write that more clearly.

That's fair enough. I think you are mistaken as well

The point is, the rules need clarification in this area. We are reading the same rules and come to opposite conclusions. How we decide to play Burst is up to us, it's fine if you want to go one way or the other but it would be nice if SPM could give us their own interpretation of what was meant.

I see no reason to doubt the rules concerning BURST, it is used as part of a ranged effect. Currently their are four instances of BURST in SDE.
Sparkle Burst
Stranglethorn
Smoke Pot
Dragon Bow.

To me, they are all (thematically) consistent with the use of a ranged attack so therefore all should use the appropriate attribute (WILL or DEX depending if the ranged attack is Magic or Missile). I don't see why Stranglethorn should be allowed to make use of an ATT attribute when it's clear it's a Magic attack (i..e magical thorns).

Konzik wrote:
Also - I allow Smoke Pot to target anything, even ground hexes - that's what it is for - putting cover.

That is exactly how I play Smoke Pot. I use a house-rule to allow empty squares to be targeted by Smoke Pot along with friendly models. But I consider it a house-rule.
 
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