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Subject: Atlantic; Belligerent Indians; Post-Ghent cards; River move rss

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Steffan O'Sullivan
United States
Plymouth
NH
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"To be honorable and just is our only defense against men without honor or justice." -Diogenes of Sinope
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The capital of New Hampshire is pronounced "Conquered." The people are called New Hamsters. They pronounce "aunt" to rhyme with "taunt."
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Okay, we finished our first game today. It took eleven hours spread over three sessions. This included a lot of rules look-up over all three sessions, and I'm afraid we have to say that these rules are not well organized. Good game, yes, but not good rules organization. It took us way too much time to find things.

Despite that, we enjoyed the game and will be playing it again! It ended in an inconclusive draw, of course, but that's appropriate considering we didn't know what we were doing and would occasionally forget rules that we *did* know, so results were skewed, anyway. For both of us. In the Wednesday evening session, for example, we completely forgot to roll for Local Militia in four different attacks! This one is clearly our fault, not the game's...

We do have more questions:

1. Some cards refer to the "Atlantic" being blockaded. Does this mean just the three sea zones with "Atlantic" in the name, or does it include the Gulf of Mexico (which of course actually is part of the Atlantic ocean)?

2. If a belligerent Indian force is wiped out, or two more asterisks scored, does that trigger a Peace track move? (This would be independent of whether or not the tribal chit is flipped to the defeated side - we understand that part of the rules well - Andy Jackson had a field day and defeated three tribes!)

3. The Ghent Peace Talks rules say that after the Ghent points are determined and applied, each player may play one more Action Card. Since 2.6 defines every card in the deck as an Action Card, does this mean you cannot play both an action card to activate an expedition and a Reaction card after the Ghent Peace Talks?

4. Is up-river movement possible on the Mississippi and Ohio rivers, at the normal river rate? We can't tell if the down-river costs listed are the only movement allowed or are simply special costs only applied to down-river movement.

Thanks!
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Kevin McPartland
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Jessup
Maryland
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Sorry that the rules organization is not intuitive for you; that would be my fault. Many eyes went over them, but ultimate responsibility is mine. sorry about that. But I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying the game!

1. Yes, the three sea zones with "Atlantic" in their names are the Atlantic sea zones. When a card want to include the Gulf as well, it says "all sea zones".

2. Two or more asterisks gained (that is, two or more than they rolled) against the Civilized Indians counts as a Major Victory, and is a Peace Track move. (You don't have to wipe them out.)

3. Each player gets one more Round. The play of their "one card" can trigger any number of Reaction cards- played by both players.

4. Normal river movement is possible up the Mississippi and Ohio rivers, one movement point per area, along the rivers. The down-river movement is a special bonus extra-fast movement rate.

Kevin
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Steffan O'Sullivan
United States
Plymouth
NH
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"To be honorable and just is our only defense against men without honor or justice." -Diogenes of Sinope
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The capital of New Hampshire is pronounced "Conquered." The people are called New Hamsters. They pronounce "aunt" to rhyme with "taunt."
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mb
Thanks, Kevin. Sorry to be harsh on the organization, but a good index would have cut our rules-searching time enormously.

KMcPartland wrote:
2. Two or more asterisks gained (that is, two or more than they rolled) against the Civilized Indians counts as a Major Victory, and is a Peace Track move. (You don't have to wipe them out.)

I think I phrased the question poorly, sorry. More simply put: does 8.8 apply to combat with Civilized Indians?

Example:
1. US moves into area with Civilized tribe (or activates existing expedition there).

2. US rolls to find warriors. Let's assume success.

3. Brit rolls for size of Civilized Indian force. Let's assume "1".

4. In the combat, the US wipes out the Indian force and is the victor (either by more asterisks or more hits if tied in asterisks).

5. (And this is the question) Per 8.8, the British Peace Track marker is advanced one space because the Civilized Indian force was completely eliminated. It would advance another space if the US player had rolled two more asterisks than the British.

6. The US player rolls to see if the Tribe is Defeated - he needs a roll of "0" or "1". Let's assume failure. A Victory marker is added to the space to impact future attempts to locate the tribe and subdue it.

If step 5 is correct, we feel that this makes Civilized tribes way too risky for the British player ever to play, unless the Peace Track markers are only a space or two apart. It's just too possible for the US player to sit there and score three or four Peace Track moves against one tribe!

Quote:
3. Each player gets one more Round. The play of their "one card" can trigger any number of Reaction cards- played by both players.

Ah. We guessed wrong on this one. But we guessed right on #1 and #4, and had no idea about #2.

Thanks!
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Steffan O'Sullivan
United States
Plymouth
NH
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"To be honorable and just is our only defense against men without honor or justice." -Diogenes of Sinope
badge
The capital of New Hampshire is pronounced "Conquered." The people are called New Hamsters. They pronounce "aunt" to rhyme with "taunt."
Avatar
mb
Ah, I see I'm wrong. In another thread (Local Militia and Peace Moves) it's clear that 8.8, condition #3, is restricted to when units in an *expedition* are eliminated. The belligerent Indians were not in an expedition in our game. The rules allow the British to move an expedition composed of Indian leaders/units there, but given my fears above, that sounds like a foolish move.

So my question then becomes: in rule 8.8, is moving the Peace track by conditions #1 and #2 applicable in combat with Belligerent Indian tribes?
 
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Paul Borchers
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Steffan, yes, you've got it right. Major Battle and Devaststing Loss Peace Marker moves would be applicable. You would need an Expedition of Indians eliminated in battle to get the third condition.
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