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Subject: PSU rss

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Josh
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So, this is going to be a rant, so if you're not feeling ranty- then please stop reading and shoo ^^

I am sick up to my eyeballs with the morning-after heroes coming out of the woodwork to dog pile PSU. Bad things happened. Those responsible are being tried in court, and will (very likely be found guilty. That is how things should be. This is one case where the court of public opinion has gone way out of line.

Two things irking me: 1)the statue 2)the NCAA

1)Taking down the state. There are exactly four groups who's word on this should carry any weight, no one else should even be interested, much less considered credible.

those groups are in order of importance:
1)The victims. If the victims had called for the removal of the statue, then, yes. Remove it. They are the ones who suffered.

2)Current PSU students. The school is for them. This is their school. If having the statue offended them, then it should be removed.

3)PSU staff/faculty. They make up the school, are dedicated to it, and have, and continue to provide education to tens of thousands of students every year. They matter.

4)PSU alumni. These people helped make the school what it is today. They donate, they care, they're one of the most dedicated alumni bases in the world. Their opinions should matter in this, not as much as the victims or those currently attending/working at PSU, but they should be heard and weighed.

Anyone else? It's not your problem. Find something better to do with your time. That 'good Samaritan' who chartered the plane to threaten Penn State? Utterly out of line.

And on to the NCAA and their 'Death Penalty', I've not seen a worse case of opportunistic grandstanding on the backs of victims ever in my life. The notion is that the crimes committed by sandusky were so heinous that somehow the NCAA *must* cancel PSU football for a year, at LEAST.

Yes, the crimes were horrible. The bastard(Sandusky) will rot in jail for the rest of his life, likely enjoying the tender affections of his fellow inmates in what can only be considered the more appropriate of punishments ever metted out.

The alleged conspirators(I find the who knew what still extremely lacking in this case, the news likes to pretend proof because sensationalism sells, but even pretending guilt is a given) are going to be on trial and end up getting their just desserts as well. Joe Pa, guilty or innocent got to see himself tossed on his ear from the program he devoted most of his adult life to, be vilified, and then die from lung cancer. I suppose we could dig up his body and hang it in the square for commentators to take turns hitting with bats if they wanted more of a spectacle. If he were not who he was, this wouldn't even be an issue. When the story broke you heard Sandusky's name one time for every five they mentioned Joe Paterno. I had people asking me if Joe Paterno had been arrested for molested kids, they were so confused by the news.

All of this does not mean the NCAA has any place doling out punishment. It is a sport-oversight organization. If There had been doping in the program, yes, punishment. If there had been bribery, grade fixing, or any number of other things related to the program itself, then yes, punishment. Those are valid things for its to oversee. It doesn't get to appoint itself a civil court(or technically tyrant since the president makes the policy) handing down fines and punishments for anything it simply doesn't like.

If this stands as a legitimate precedent, what is out of bounds?

An assistant Coach gets a DUI, fine the school for it!

A Coach speaks out on a topic the President of the NCAA doesn't like? Fine the school for it!

And, even if you give the NCAA all the power it wants and let it do as it pleases and punish those it wants. Who is it punishing in this instance? The perpetrators(both convicted and alleged, keep in mind all of the PSU related cases are still untried) are all out of the system. They're gone, removed. The football program isn't Joe Paterno's program anymore. It's Bill O'Brians. Are you punishing him for having the guts to take on a rebuilding challenge that was already going to be difficult? Is it helpful to anyone to hammer him with penalties?

Is it helpful to punish people who live and work in State College? Like it or not the football season equates to Christmas season for the town. Townies put up with a lot of mayhem for the chance to get back in the black, because Christmas itself sees half the population gone(no money there) I actually heard one 'talking head' on CNN say 'I understand about the people, about the businesses, about the hotels and restaurants, but PSU needs to be punished.'(slight paraphrase on the end there, I apologize for not remembering it exactly) I actually had to laugh at that. Yes, because there has been a horrible crime, we should put people out of work, close businesses, and hurt thousands(not exaggerating) MORE people, because that will help.

Is it helpful to punish the students? PSU football is a tradition, and even wiht Joe Pa gone students were gearing up ready to welcome Coach Bill and make a new beginning. ('I Billeve' shirts were a hot new item) Stripping that away from them because... they did what exactly? Went to classes? There seems to be this notion that PSU is one giant pedophile supply dump. Or that somehow by simply being associated with PSU you need to be punished. (keep in mind 1 in 700 college alumni in the US, are PSU alumni)

Does this help the victims? I haven't heard any outcries by the victims for anything like this. They will very likely have their day in civil court, or more likely work something out with PSU outside of court. It'll never undo the damage, but it'll be their satisfaction for THEM, it is not up to others(except the courts) to decide what is the right amount of retribution to exact for THEM.

Is it meant to be a message? I've heard that bandied around. Exactly what kind of message is it?

Don't Rape kids? People who won't, don't need that warning. People who will.. won't heed it.

Don't cover it up?... or what? These sanctions arn't actually hurting the people who covered it up.

To me the loudest message being conveyed here is:Beware your neighbor, have no faith in anyone, someone else's screw ups will be held against you. Better to spy on your coworkers and hunt for something to turn them in over than be caught unawares. McCarthyism.

Okay, rant done. Say what you like, you can't top anything a million other self-righteous hind-sighters, and knee-jerk heroes haven't already said, and with more profanity.
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Oh who cares? Thanks for the rant.
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R. Frazier
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I just don't understand why people care so much about college sports.
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Randy Cox
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I, too, don't understand why college sports became the overdone craze that it has become, but this is a great opportunity for the NCAA to point out that all the money in the world (which is, after all, what college football is now about) doesn't matter when a program spins out of control as Penn State's certainly did.

Punishing the future of the past? That's how it works and always has. That's how the NCAA has always dole out punishment and how it should be now.

They should just shut down Penn State's football (and possibly all athletic) program for four or five years and then let it fade into history, like SMU's did. Or like any of the powerhouses of the 1910s. Just let Penn State do something else, like be a school with no athletic presence, for awhile.
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Brilliant. Close a couple dozen small businesses. Put some people out of jobs, bankrupt others, cripple the other college sports at PSU(Football pays for itself and puts about 30 mil into the athletics budget for OTHER sports, such as olympic level fencing) not to mention non-athletics related programs, like the academics you mentioned. Because a significant portion of the budget for football is in ongoing costs. Beaver stadium, other practice facilities. Closing the program doesn't mean PSU doesn't have to pay for these things still, and honestly, if you're going to pretend that academics are somehow second-line at PSU, well, nvm, I won't even argue there. Dickinson school of Law, Penn State Hershey, a World Campus program that other universities have used to model their own distance education programs from, nah, none of that matters ^^

We can't let people be hurt, no matter how many people we have to hurt to make that message understood!
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rylfrazier wrote:
I just don't understand why people care so much about college sports.


One could say the same thing about the board game hobby, yet here we are. whistle
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Shadrach wrote:
Brilliant. Close a couple dozen small businesses. Put some people out of jobs, bankrupt others, cripple the other college sports at PSU(Football pays for itself and puts about 30 mil into the athletics budget for OTHER sports, such as olympic level fencing) not to mention non-athletics related programs, like the academics you mentioned. Because a significant portion of the budget for football is in ongoing costs. Beaver stadium, other practice facilities. Closing the program doesn't mean PSU doesn't have to pay for these things still, and honestly, if you're going to pretend that academics are somehow second-line at PSU, well, nvm, I won't even argue there. Dickinson school of Law, Penn State Hershey, a World Campus program that other universities have used to model their own distance education programs from, nah, none of that matters ^^

We can't let people be hurt, no matter how many people we have to hurt to make that message understood!


I agree. The individuals responsible for the heinous crimes and their coverup should pay. That means Sandusky, Spanier, Curley, Shultz, and Paterno. Paterno can only pay with the destruction of his legacy, as he's in the grave, but the others can be put behind bars, and I hope that's where they land. But to wipe out the lifeblood of an entire community is criminal in itself - dozens of small businesses in State College that exist almost entirely due to the people who visit for football season will close shop. The football program revenues fund all of the other 29 varsity sports on campus, including all of the women's programs - closing down the football program will mean the end of most of these other programs as well. And what good will come of wiping out the football program? What message will be sent that sending a half dozen once highly respected men to jail won't? Which victims will be aided by this act that the tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars that will be paid out in settlements or court awards won't? I've never been a fan of collective punishment of innocent groups of people in response to the specific crimes of individuals. A number of innocent boys have been victimized by the crimes of Sandusky. Now the NCAA will punish more innocent people for those crimes. This is justice?
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Shadrach wrote:
We can't let people be hurt, no matter how many people we have to hurt to make that message understood!
Penn State didn't have to let a child molester continue to rape boys on their property and turn the other way. There are consequences, no matter how much you'd like them to be dismissed.

A death penalty for the school's football program would send a great message to all other schools. Coaches, particularly in the lucrative sports, already have too much power and usually a lack of division of powers. That's a very bad situation that needs to be rectified.

Sure, a few people agonize and possibly even lose jobs. But that's not what colleges are supposed to be about--providing a place for someone to hawk oversized foam fingers or hot dogs. They can continue to do that at other venues where perverts aren't allowed to ply their wares without oversight. But "the faithful" fans will just have to suck it up and admit that their beloved semi-pro team let things get too far out of hand.
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Sometimes it only takes one rotten apple to ruin the whole batch. It's sad for those who will become the collateral damage by an infrastructure that created such a vile world for many victims.

Someone had to champion the cause to bring down that system, even when your list of "important" parties refused to do so, and continue to do so.
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desertfox2004 wrote:
This is justice?


Yes, Leo, it most certainly is. I live in State College, and if the only thing holding this burg together is the college football program, then oh well. People here are lining up to take photos with Paterno's statue in anticipation if it coming down. Clearly the "message" of his involvement hasn't actually sunk in, and I think it's a message that absolutely needs to sink in.
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MisterCranky wrote:
desertfox2004 wrote:
This is justice?


Yes, Leo, it most certainly is. I live in State College, and if the only thing holding this burg together is the college football program, then oh well. People here are lining up to take photos with Paterno's statue in anticipation if it coming down. Clearly the "message" of his involvement hasn't actually sunk in, and I think it's a message that absolutely needs to sink in.


Josh, believe me, those people posing with and defending that statue piss me off. They give a bad name to the rest of us PSU alums. I will not accept that these Paterno cultists represent the majority of the alumi. I keep in touch with quite a few classmates and other PSU grads, and while we are not all of the same mind on a lot of the details of this horrible situation, none that I speak with think that Paterno was blameless in this scandal. The statue should have come down, I'm glad it's down now, and I, and the PSU alums I know all agree that the other responsible parties - Spanier, Shultz, and Curley, should go to jail. Nobody I know if denying the heinous nature of Sandusky's crimes or the evil done by those top PSU officials, including Paterno. However, I'm pissed about the destruction now coming down on my alma mater for things I never knew about, had no control over, and obviously detest. Every year I get a proxy vote form as an alum. Never in the 28 years that I've been receiving these forms was there ever a question posed "Do you approve of the adminstration entering into a coverup of a serial pedophile who has been granted emeritus status?". These evil assholes did a horrible thing covering for Sandusky, and while they will hopefully pay for those crimes, the rest of us will too, and we had no idea. This, put simply, sucks.
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R. Frazier
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http://preview.tinyurl.com/cxkah8u

/\

From Will Wheaton's Tumbr. Pretty funny response to the situation.
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MisterCranky wrote:
desertfox2004 wrote:
This is justice?
Clearly the "message" of his involvement hasn't actually sunk in, and I think it's a message that absolutely needs to sink in.


Alleged involvement. And that's where I shy away from the fervor.

I feel it too. I want to see everyone at Penn State get their come uppence; Sandusky, Paterno, the administrators that knew about it, the administrators that didn't, the janitor, his mom, the student body, townsfolk, and their pets.

Paterno was accused, tried, and hanged by an investigator. If we leveled punishment based solely on police investigations, things would be different around here. Paterno received no hearing, trial, or defense. The sports and political talking heads are fumbling over each other to be the most outraged.

It's probably all true, and it is despicable, so it's tough to come to his defense, but it just seems that a cover up for such a heinous and sensitive thing is so terrible that it's easy to skip the part about his side of things.
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Sky Knight X wrote:
Alleged involvement. And that's where I shy away from the fervor.

I feel it too. I want to see everyone at Penn State get their come uppence; Sandusky, Paterno, the administrators that knew about it, the administrators that didn't, the janitor, his mom, the student body, townsfolk, and their pets.

Paterno was accused, tried, and hanged by an investigator. If we leveled punishment based solely on police investigations, things would be different around here. Paterno received no hearing, trial, or defense. The sports and political talking heads are fumbling over each other to be the most outraged.

It's probably all true, and it is despicable, so it's tough to come to his defense, but it just seems that a cover up for such a heinous and sensitive thing is so terrible that it's easy to skip the part about his side of things.
"Punishment" is kind of a strong word to use for an action that someone will never know about.

I think if it appears likely that you're not a good person or an admirable person, people may respond by taking down public commemorations of what a great person you were.

Honestly I think it's ridiculous that there was a statue up to him to begin with, as like I said I really do not understand why people get so excited about the exploits of sports figures, but certainly if there was a statue up to the man, I assume it was up because of who people thought he was, and now that they think he was someone different, I think it's reasonable to decide that it's probably time to take the statue down.

I assume you are not suggesting that some kind of posthumous trial is required to stop venerating a guy who was in the most favorable possible analysis really good at the job of being a college football coach.
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I like college football.
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rylfrazier wrote:
I just don't understand why people care so much about college sports.



Honestly I don't care much about college football, but I do care about justice and shutting down this football program now is grossly unjust.

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As I flip around the web tonight, I see that CBS Sports is reporting that the NCAA is likely to fine PSU $30 million, among other things. Then, I read somewhere else that the figure could be $60 million. I then read that the Big Ten conference is now also looking to somehow punish PSU, and perhaps even expell them from the conference. As an alum, I have to say that I've never seen such a feeding frenzy up close like this before. Taking a detached view of the situation for a moment, I have to say that the power of the angry mob is something to behold. The momentum for one organization to try and outdo the last one in terms of just how hard they can come down on the university is fascinating. Things seems to be getting more over-the-top exponentially. I wouldn't be surprised if President Obama launches a drone campaign against University Park at dawn. I mean, why stop at non-lethal methods - a few missiles launched into Old Main and Beaver Stadium would really send a strong message of Federal disapproval.
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eknauer wrote:
rylfrazier wrote:
I just don't understand why people care so much about college sports.


One could say the same thing about the board game hobby, yet here we are. whistle


I never understood why anyone cared about things that I don't care about. And thanks to Randy I feel it's now perfectly legitimate here to bitch about shit people like that I don't understand the appeal of - let's get started:

Euro Games
Basketball
Curling
Professorially professionally produced porn
Huge Ta-Ta's
tattoos
comic books
Star Wars
Star Trek
George Takei's FB photo memes (every 15 minutes, like clockwork)
College students who pretend they know shit they actually are clueless about
College grads who pretend they know shit they are still clueless about
craft beer
craft bread
craft vegetables
craft herbs
craft whiskey
craft garbage in general
people who talk about craft stuff
people who refuse to use the word "craft" but are content to say "artisan" every few paragraphs
hipster hair styles
eco-anything, except echo chambers (see other thread about echo chambers)

Okay, that's just a tiny portion of the total list of shit people care about but I don't understand why. I could also put Penn State and this whole crew of vultures on the list but I never liked the coach anyway because the nickname "JoePa" is just moronic.




*edit* spell check only works in context if you can see the words. Otherwise it's a crapshoot.
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Well, for more info on how an angry mob regards pedophiles and those who may have enabled them, see 1931's "M" by Fritz Lang.
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DWTripp wrote:
Professorially produced porn

You can get a PhD in porn?
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MisterCranky wrote:
Well, for more info on how an angry mob regards pedophiles and those who may have enabled them, see 1931's "M" by Fritz Lang.


In this case, the angry mob isn't just stopping at burning the monster and his enablers, but are conducting a scorched earth campaign against the entire village. Innocent, guilty - what does it matter - as the old airborne saying goes, "kill 'em all, and let God sort 'em out". I mean, why not torch the fans and every citizen of State College - aren't they guilty by association? After all, if you've ever rooted for Penn State, you've rooted for a pedophile, whether you knew it or not, so you're guilty too! At least, that seems to be the underlying message that's increasingly being transmitted here. Baby, bathwater, bathtub, water spigot...let's just throw everything out the fucking window.
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As mentioned earlier, I live here in State College, and I have no issue with punitive action of the sort the NCAA is contemplating. Sure, life isn't fair, and people will be hurt by the aftershocks. The university failed to manage this situation appropriately from the get-go, and if it has to take a massive hit in order to impart the message to the PEOPLE who run it, and rely on it, and take it for granted that, "hey, this will never happen again," then that's a message and a punishment that, as a resident of State College who WILL be affected by this, I say, "do it."
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Randy Cox wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
We can't let people be hurt, no matter how many people we have to hurt to make that message understood!
Penn State didn't have to let a child molester continue to rape boys on their property and turn the other way. There are consequences, no matter how much you'd like them to be dismissed.

A death penalty for the school's football program would send a great message to all other schools. Coaches, particularly in the lucrative sports, already have too much power and usually a lack of division of powers. That's a very bad situation that needs to be rectified.

Sure, a few people agonize and possibly even lose jobs. But that's not what colleges are supposed to be about--providing a place for someone to hawk oversized foam fingers or hot dogs. They can continue to do that at other venues where perverts aren't allowed to ply their wares without oversight. But "the faithful" fans will just have to suck it up and admit that their beloved semi-pro team let things get too far out of hand.


You're personifying the institution and then acting as though that "person" had full knowledge of the situation. The latter is likely false and the former is just strange and unfair.

Of course the masses want blood, so it probably doesn't matter if the damage has any logical connection to the situation or not.
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MisterCranky wrote:
As mentioned earlier, I live here in State College, and I have no issue with punitive action of the sort the NCAA is contemplating. Sure, life isn't fair, and people will be hurt by the aftershocks. The university failed to manage this situation appropriately from the get-go, and if it has to take a massive hit in order to impart the message to the PEOPLE who run it, and rely on it, and take it for granted that, "hey, this will never happen again," then that's a message and a punishment that, as a resident of State College who WILL be affected by this, I say, "do it."


Your willingness to experiment with masochism doesn't give your opinions any more weight here. You can't think of any better way to handle it? Not even something like "go after the people at fault instead of somewhere they just happened to work"?
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I'm not looking to carry weight with you. I'm a part of the community that bears the weight, so unless you're right here with me, then it's your carrying capacity that's of no consequence to me.
 
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