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Subject: Leaders casualties rss

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Marc Puig
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When you rule for a battle where the result concerns too to the leader casualtie, do you need to add the leader modifier in order to get a result in the table related to the leaders casualties?

Thanks.

 
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Hans von Stockhausen

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Hi Marc,

If I understand you correctly you are refering to leader casualties. In Lost Cause Leader casualties occur when the event card calls for one. These are automatic and will occur even if the player chooses not to fight a battle (assume the leader is killed while making a reconaissance or something. There are no die rolls involved for casualty determination. If you do fight a battle the leader may apply his modifier but he becomes a casualty (presumably at the moment of victory or defeat.

Regards,

Hans
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Wes Erni
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The key part of Leader casualties Marc, is to never, EVER put Lee in that position. Get Lee as early as you can, put him the West (immortal thru 1862) and rampage through Indiana. Just before the end of 1862, I pull him out and (Advanced game) make him National advisor, where he remains safe and sound for the rest of the game. In the Expansion game, the extra leaders provide for a more varied leader approach -- but there remain two essential leaders in Lost Cause, Robert E. Lee and Nathan Bedford Forrest.

What? Forrest you say? Did I miss an expansion kit? No, Forrest is embodied by the Raid command and is the key to victory. The Heart of Dixie is not Richmond, it is Decatur. One part of Lee's "Drive to Indiana" is all the advantages of taking the war to the North -- the other is buying time to layer multiple defenses on the road to Chattanooga. As long as the player has that all important +1 modifier to the Diversionary Campaign table, Lee can pretty much fight the war from the comfort of his desk as Advisor. The loss of Richmond -- shruggable, I can easily "Recall" the "Eastern army" on its long road to Savannah (Nathan has a long reach). Vicksburg is very hard to take, but if it falls, eh, its a long road also to Montgomery. As long as the Army of the Cumberland can't fight its way past Chattanooga, the Confederacy is secure. The strength of the Union armies, the quality of the respective Leaders, are largely irrelevant. The dynamic duo of Lee and "Forrest" don't care.

There are tactical nuances and some strategic "sleight of hand" to manipulate, but this strategy has been enormously successful to me. Some of the "decisive victories" have not "looked" that way -- sometimes the Confederacy is reduced to "Greater Georgia", but at the end, came up the winner (the value of a top notch National Advisor opens up so many "tricks"). I have had some discussions with Hans and Alan about muting the power of the Raid Command (just a little -- the mechanic is very cool and one the best representations of this important part of the war I have seen in a Civil War game). If you lose Richmond, you lose Lee and/or the Diversionary table is resolved by rolling 2 dice (subtract 4) are two (unplaytested) ideas I had. Still, every version of this beautifully crafted game has been a blast to play.
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Marc Puig
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hansvonstockhausen wrote:
Hi Marc,

If I understand you correctly you are refering to leader casualties. In Lost Cause Leader casualties occur when the event card calls for one. These are automatic and will occur even if the player chooses not to fight a battle (assume the leader is killed while making a reconaissance or something. There are no die rolls involved for casualty determination. If you do fight a battle the leader may apply his modifier but he becomes a casualty (presumably at the moment of victory or defeat.

Regards,

Hans


Thanks for the answer, Hans. I think I was confus.I was confusing the battle die roll with the casualtie.

Even so I remember that there is a table for rolling what kind of casualtie you get. Are there any kind of modifiers for this table?

Thanks again.
 
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Marc Puig
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GameBreaker wrote:
The key part of Leader casualties Marc, is to never, EVER put Lee in that position. Get Lee as early as you can, put him the West (immortal thru 1862) and rampage through Indiana. Just before the end of 1862, I pull him out and (Advanced game) make him National advisor, where he remains safe and sound for the rest of the game. In the Expansion game, the extra leaders provide for a more varied leader approach -- but there remain two essential leaders in Lost Cause, Robert E. Lee and Nathan Bedford Forrest.

What? Forrest you say? Did I miss an expansion kit? No, Forrest is embodied by the Raid command and is the key to victory. The Heart of Dixie is not Richmond, it is Decatur. One part of Lee's "Drive to Indiana" is all the advantages of taking the war to the North -- the other is buying time to layer multiple defenses on the road to Chattanooga. As long as the player has that all important +1 modifier to the Diversionary Campaign table, Lee can pretty much fight the war from the comfort of his desk as Advisor. The loss of Richmond -- shruggable, I can easily "Recall" the "Eastern army" on its long road to Savannah (Nathan has a long reach). Vicksburg is very hard to take, but if it falls, eh, its a long road also to Montgomery. As long as the Army of the Cumberland can't fight its way past Chattanooga, the Confederacy is secure. The strength of the Union armies, the quality of the respective Leaders, are largely irrelevant. The dynamic duo of Lee and "Forrest" don't care.

There are tactical nuances and some strategic "sleight of hand" to manipulate, but this strategy has been enormously successful to me. Some of the "decisive victories" have not "looked" that way -- sometimes the Confederacy is reduced to "Greater Georgia", but at the end, came up the winner (the value of a top notch National Advisor opens up so many "tricks"). I have had some discussions with Hans and Alan about muting the power of the Raid Command (just a little -- the mechanic is very cool and one the best representations of this important part of the war I have seen in a Civil War game). If you lose Richmond, you lose Lee and/or the Diversionary table is resolved by rolling 2 dice (subtract 4) are two (unplaytested) ideas I had. Still, every version of this beautifully crafted game has been a blast to play.


Thanks again for your help, Wes. You always have good ideas.
I have only played once with expansion, but I´m going to try some of your ideas next time.

You´re the game breaker.
 
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David Kennedy
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Wes, definitely re-post your thoughts on this "Indiana" strategy as it's own thread under Strategy in The Lost Cause forum. It has great merit and deserves a large audience. Here, it is buried under a Rules query and likely to be overlooked.

It is also a potent tonic to the ever-present defeatists.
 
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David Kennedy
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GameBreaker wrote:
The key part of Leader casualties Marc, is to never, EVER put Lee in that position. Get Lee as early as you can, put him the West (immortal thru 1862) and rampage through Indiana. Just before the end of 1862, I pull him out and (Advanced game) make him National advisor, where he remains safe and sound for the rest of the game.

This dynamic -- absolute certainty about the timing of prospective leader casualties -- definitely needs to be re-examined. If the Confederates can plan with great confidence leader casualties, as exemplified here -- "immortal thru 1862" -- something is not right. I understand how the mechanic was crafted. However, the certitude it bestows to the wiley player strikes me as unrealistic. I, too, track carefully the prospect of leader casualties, but not with the deviousness and effectiveness demonstrated here.

I love the leader casualty dynamic because of the uncertainly and attendant tension it injects. But, the key should be uncertainty. No general should believe himself to be immortal, not even the National Advisor.

Of course, given my observation I should come up with a better idea to implement leader casualties. I'll get cracking.
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Wes Erni
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I agree with you about the "cold precision" of Leader mortality. As a player, this is the kind of edge I am looking for -- but as designer, I would feel sick about the manipulation. I have had some discussions with Hans and Alan concerning Raid effectiveness and the relative non-importance of Richmond (it should mean everything to the Confederacy), but this Leader "finessing" wasn't addressed. Some off-the-top of my head ideas:
1) Every "Conditional" roll of "6" offers some chance of Leader Casualties. If Battle: an ensuing "1" or "6" roll triggers a check on the Casualty table. If Administrative: an ensuing "1" triggers a check.
2) The existing Leader Casualty cards continue to force a Leader Casualty check -- but apply a -1 modifier.

This system isn't perfect, but it does spread the danger to all leaders, at all times -- while maintaining the same average of Leader deaths. Players do not have to constantly roll extra dice to check on their leaders, they just have to remember that "6" Conditional rolls mean DANGER.

It is only just recently that I have discovered this "computer thing" (the blizzard of activity surrounding our Swing States game required it). Boardgame Geek has been quite an eye-opener (in a good way) and I have greatly enjoyed cruising the State-of-Siege sites looking for new threads I could add my views to (I only today realized I am getting "tips" -- thank you). If I can figure out how to start a thread, I will do so (I have lots of "unusual" solutions to SOS games -- most of which I am free to talk about).



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Hans von Stockhausen

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Marc,

You are right there are no modifiers to the Leader casualty Table.

Hans
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Hans von Stockhausen

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Indeed we have had brief discussions about the game in light of Wes' new revelations. I have been taking notes and the Leader casualty idea by Wes is certainly worth considering. When the time comes for a second edition game I plan to canvass all you guys for your ideas and suggestions. Thanks for your input and support.

Hans
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Wes Erni
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HitchKennedy wrote:
Wes, definitely re-post your thoughts on this "Indiana" strategy as it's own thread under Strategy in The Lost Cause forum. It has great merit and deserves a large audience. Here, it is buried under a Rules query and likely to be overlooked.

It is also a potent tonic to the ever-present defeatists.


David, I was about to take your advice and re-post a much more thorough strategy article (even had a title -- Indiana Lee and the Raiders of the Lost Cause), when I decided to scour the forum for something I might have "missed". Lo and behold, I found a rule change (Command morale test penalties) that makes Lee sitting behind his desk a little less attractive (I completely agree with this change). The foundation of my strategy remains strong, but I will have to reconsider putting Lee out in the "field" again (in a "safe" region). I will have to find some playtest time, before I "publish" (serves me right, for my computer illiteracy).
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Marc Puig
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hansvonstockhausen wrote:
Marc,

You are right there are no modifiers to the Leader casualty Table.

Hans


Thanks for your answer, Hans.

 
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Marc Puig
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GameBreaker wrote:
HitchKennedy wrote:
Wes, definitely re-post your thoughts on this "Indiana" strategy as it's own thread under Strategy in The Lost Cause forum. It has great merit and deserves a large audience. Here, it is buried under a Rules query and likely to be overlooked.

It is also a potent tonic to the ever-present defeatists.


David, I was about to take your advice and re-post a much more thorough strategy article (even had a title -- Indiana Lee and the Raiders of the Lost Cause), when I decided to scour the forum for something I might have "missed". Lo and behold, I found a rule change (Command morale test penalties) that makes Lee sitting behind his desk a little less attractive (I completely agree with this change). The foundation of my strategy remains strong, but I will have to reconsider putting Lee out in the "field" again (in a "safe" region). I will have to find some playtest time, before I "publish" (serves me right, for my computer illiteracy).


It is good someone adds new ideas and experience to the gameplay. I have got my first victory in Keep up the Fire because of the open walls and fire teams strategy you ofered us. Let´s see how works Indiana Lee and the raiders of the lost cause strategy.
 
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