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Advanced Squad Leader: Starter Kit #1» Forums » Rules

Subject: Difficult Questions rss

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Erez Ben-Aharon
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for me anyways

1) Road Bonus:

a) Can it be applied to MF expenditure other than actual Movement, and what are the exact conditions to claiming it?

E.g: picking up a dropped SW, or even throwing a smoke grenade outside of a road hex - Infantry moving from zN5->zN6(1MF)->zN7(2MF)->zN8(3MF) all on road, then throwing a smoke in zM9 (for 5MF with Road Bonus).

b) Do I actually have to cross a road hex side to claim it, or is it enough that I DO NOT cross non-road hex sides?

I have seen several interpretations of this. The ASL FAQ seem to imply it is possible ("A4.132 & B3.4 Can moving units on a road get the road bonus if not changing Locations (e.g., place SMOKE, recover weapons, etc.)? A. Yes. [J1; Mw]"), which suggests that it is possible to even NOT NEEDING TO LEAVE THE HEX AT ALL - Infantry can stay put and just spend 5MF!), but the ASLSK seem to contradict that ("Infantry that CROSSES only road hex sides throughout its entire MPh is entitled to one extra MF"), by suggesting that the Infantry must do an actual CROSSING of a hex side.

2) Can a leader direct fire (or otherwise use leadership DRM) if carrying a SW (such as a DC)? I think yes, but I'm not sure since there is a stipulation that he cannot direct while firing the SW (at half FP), but nothing is said about directing while just carrying it.

3) FT: "Any units possessing a FT must deduct one (per FT possessed) from the IFT resolution DR of any attack against it."

a) "Per FT possessed" - this seems to imply that the unit might have more than one FT, but given that it cannot fire multiple FT I don't understand the stipulation (unless it means Per FT possessed combined by all the units in the hex - see part c below).

b) In the case where there are multiple MMC in that hex (one with FT, one without), is the -1 for the entire hex, or only for the MMC carrying the FT? (I have seen conflicting views regarding this).

c) In the case it is just for the MMC carrying the FT, do you make two DR (one of the MMC carrying the FT, the other for the rest of the hex), or just one DR and "split" the results (I suspect the latter, which is in line with how you deal with attacking a CX MMC in CC with other non-CX MMC).

d) Assuming you "split" the results, suppose the FT MMC gets a 1KIA result, and the other non-FT MMC get a K/2 result (one higher on the same column, as they did not receive the -1 DRM), how is that resolved?
- Is the FT MMC KIA causes the other "split" group to all break?
- Or perhaps the K/2 causes a casualty reduction of one of the non-FT MMC and then everyone else (which in our case is just the FT MMC from the other "split" group) gets a 2MC?
- Or do I just get highest of the two (1KIA)?
- Or is every group individually gets the result? (so 1KIA will not affect anyone else but the FT MMC which will be eliminated, and the K/2 will just be a Casualty Reduction of the non-FT MMC + a 2MC only on itself (and not on the FT MMC))



4) If a 6+! SMC and an MMC in a hex are fired on and suffer an NMC, and the 6+1 DOESN"T break/pin, and thus retains his leadership modifier ability, is it MANDATORY to roll for the MMC with a +1 DRM (which would be bad), or can we choose not to use the leader modifier.

5) Leader doing multiple rallies in his hex during the RPh - is this considered the Leader sole action for the RPh or each individual rallied MMC or or both? In other words, which of those (leader/MMC's/or both) can do additional actions if Leader multi-rallied?

6) (5-4-8) MMC + (3-8) LMG are both D1F as a FG during the MPh.
The usual Residual in the hex would be 4 (8FP/2 = 4).
However, in case the LMG retains ROF (which the DEFENDER chooses to keep) - does this mean there is still a residual of 2 from just the MMC FP column? (5FP/2 = 2.4, rounded down to 2).
Or does the defender have to forgo the residual for the entire group (which conceivably could have had many more MMC than the 5-4-8)?

7) a) In CC, does the stipulation that "A SMC may attack alone but if it does it must also defend alone" means that it is an option even when the SMC is NOT ALONE? (meaning, if he is stacked with other friendly good order MMC in the CC hex, the ATTACKER/DEFENDER may choose him to attack/defend alone), or does that mean that ONLY IF HE IS ALONE, can he attack/defend alone. Otherwise, he MUST attack/defend with at least one other MMC?

b) In either case, what if he is ALONE but with other BROKEN MMC?
He has no option but attacking alone (since Broken MMC have no FP), but
it seem strange that he must then defend alone (broken MMC DO have FP for purposes of defense, and it seems to penalize the SMC if he cannot combine his 1FP with their defense FP - considering he did not have an option to attack with the broken units), how is that resolved?

8) IPC assistance given by an SMC to an MMC stipulates that it is valid as long as they "...start the MPh together and move as a stack."
This seems to imply that I can move them together just one hex, then split - and the MMC would still have the bonus IPC. I am pretty sure that is not the intent but the strict interpretation suggests this. What is the intention of "Move as a stack"? (for most games it is END Mph together as a stack, but I am not sure this is like most games ).

Same question applies to the +2MF bonus (which is phrased similarly).


 
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Mark Evans
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abeheron wrote:
1) Road Bonus:

a) Can it be applied to MF expenditure other than actual Movement, and what are the exact conditions to claiming it?

E.g: picking up a dropped SW, or even throwing a smoke grenade outside of a road hex - Infantry moving from zN5->zN6(1MF)->zN7(2MF)->zN8(3MF) all on road, then throwing a smoke in zM9 (for 5MF with Road Bonus).


Sure. You don't have to just move to get road bonus. Here is the rule.
Quote:
A MF bonus of one can be earned if the unit travels
along a road throughout the MPh.


Quote:
b) Do I actually have to cross a road hex side to claim it, or is it enough that I DO NOT cross non-road hex sides?


I think spending your entire turn on a road would be sufficient.

Quote:
I have seen several interpretations of this. The ASL FAQ seem to imply it is possible ("A4.132 & B3.4 Can moving units on a road get the road bonus if not changing Locations (e.g., place SMOKE, recover weapons, etc.)? A. Yes. [J1; Mw]"), which suggests that it is possible to even NOT NEEDING TO LEAVE THE HEX AT ALL - Infantry can stay put and just spend 5MF!), but the ASLSK seem to contradict that ("Infantry that CROSSES only road hex sides throughout its entire MPh is entitled to one extra MF"), by suggesting that the Infantry must do an actual CROSSING of a hex side.


Yeah, the wording is a bit vague. Here is what the ASL Rules say:
Quote:

Infantry, Cavalry, and Horse-Drawn units which cross only road hexsides throughout their MPh are entitled to one extra MF provided they do not encounter mines, burning wrecks, Wire, mud, rubble, roadblocks, debris (O1.3), Panji Covered hexsides, SMOKE, or Deep Snow in those road hexes and are not pushing Guns (C10.3)


It is not too much more clear here, but the Q&A make it more clear.

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Martí Cabré

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2) Units can possess an unlimited number of SW and guns. Using them and carrying/moving them is another matter.

A static leader that possesses some SW can direct fire without negative effects.


3)

a) An MMC can possess an unlimited number of FT. The -1 drm is for each FT possessed by the unit.

b) A unit is not affected by FT possessed by other units.

c) You make only one DR and split the results.

d) Each unit is affected by its result. The FT unit will eat the 1KIA and the rest the K/2. If there were two units with FT both would be affected by the 1KIA (roll random selection) and the rest the K/2.


4) I don't know how it's ruled in the SK, but in full ASL the rule is A10.72 Mandatory Leadership.

Quote:
10.72 MANDATORY LEADERSHIP: A player cannot decline use of a non-zero (whether positive or negative) leadership modifier in the same Location or moving stack when performing a MC/TC or Rally attempt or Ambush, Concealment, Search Casualties, or Integrity Check dr/DR unless there is another leader present in the Location or moving stack whose leadership modifier he can substitute. However, a player can always opt to exclude leader direction in any attack it makes [EXC: Armor Leader (D3.45); Leader Creation (18.12); MG Mandatory Fire Direction (9.4)].



5) Limitation is not per number of actions but per kind of actions. A unit that rallies or is rallied cannot do other actions. A leader can rally himself and then rally other units, but it's all considered the same kind of action.

 
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Martí Cabré

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6) Only the RF from the MG that keeps ROF is forgone. The small arms fire from the MMC still leaves RF.


7)

a) A leader can always choose to go solo, even if there are other friendly units in the CC. Usually it's not a good option.

b) In this situation the leader can either attack alone and defend alone, or stack with the brokie, forgo the attack and defend with the brokie.


8) The moment they split the bonus is gone. Bonus MF are the last to be expended by a unit. Regarding IPC, as far as I know losing the leader by any means only has the effect of losing the IPC bonus, so available MF should be recalculated and, if exceeded, movement would end without further penalization.

There are other similar situations with more penalties, for example, a leader that is wounded during D1F having expended more than 3MF is pinned. But I think that for your question there are no penalties.
 
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Martí Cabré

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BTW, this was a good set of questions, that reflect the complexity of this game.
 
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Quote:
A player cannot decline use of a non-zero (whether positive or negative) leadership modifier in the same Location or moving stack when performing a MC/TC or Rally attempt or Ambush, Concealment, Search Casualties, or Integrity Check dr/DR unless there is another leader present in the Location or moving stack whose leadership modifier he can substitute.


Dang. Playing that wrong for, like, ever.
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Erez Ben-Aharon
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lgoldberg wrote:
Quote:
A player cannot decline use of a non-zero (whether positive or negative) leadership modifier in the same Location or moving stack when performing a MC/TC or Rally attempt or Ambush, Concealment, Search Casualties, or Integrity Check dr/DR unless there is another leader present in the Location or moving stack whose leadership modifier he can substitute.


Dang. Playing that wrong for, like, ever.


Famous ASL last words
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Erez Ben-Aharon
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marticabre wrote:


Quote:
10.72 MANDATORY LEADERSHIP: A player cannot decline use of a non-zero (whether positive or negative) leadership modifier in the same Location or moving stack when performing a MC/TC or Rally attempt or Ambush, Concealment, Search Casualties, or Integrity Check dr/DR unless there is another leader present in the Location or moving stack whose leadership modifier he can substitute. However, a player can always opt to exclude leader direction in any attack it makes [EXC: Armor Leader (D3.45); Leader Creation (18.12); MG Mandatory Fire Direction (9.4)].




This is interesting, it seem to be in contradiction to what is said in the ASLSK rules (1.2.1 SMC: "An unbroken, unpinned leader MAY use his leadership DRM to affect the performance of other personnel in his location.")

Could this be a deficit in the SK rules?

Also...does 'cannot decline use of...when performing...Rally attempt' means that I cannot do a self-rally in the same location that I have a good order non-zero leader? (what if he was a zero leader?)
 
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Martí Cabré

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abeheron wrote:
marticabre wrote:


Quote:
10.72 MANDATORY LEADERSHIP: A player cannot decline use of a non-zero (whether positive or negative) leadership modifier in the same Location or moving stack when performing a MC/TC or Rally attempt or Ambush, Concealment, Search Casualties, or Integrity Check dr/DR unless there is another leader present in the Location or moving stack whose leadership modifier he can substitute. However, a player can always opt to exclude leader direction in any attack it makes [EXC: Armor Leader (D3.45); Leader Creation (18.12); MG Mandatory Fire Direction (9.4)].




This is interesting, it seem to be in contradiction to what is said in the ASLSK rules (1.2.1 SMC: "An unbroken, unpinned leader MAY use his leadership DRM to affect the performance of other personnel in his location.")

Could this be a deficit in the SK rules?

Also...does 'cannot decline use of...when performing...Rally attempt' means that I cannot do a self-rally in the same location that I have a good order non-zero leader? (what if he was a zero leader?)


I don't know about the first one.

The second one, a unit can never perform auto-rally if there is a GO Leader in the same Location.
 
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Erez Ben-Aharon
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marticabre wrote:
abeheron wrote:
marticabre wrote:


Quote:
10.72 MANDATORY LEADERSHIP: A player cannot decline use of a non-zero (whether positive or negative) leadership modifier in the same Location or moving stack when performing a MC/TC or Rally attempt or Ambush, Concealment, Search Casualties, or Integrity Check dr/DR unless there is another leader present in the Location or moving stack whose leadership modifier he can substitute. However, a player can always opt to exclude leader direction in any attack it makes [EXC: Armor Leader (D3.45); Leader Creation (18.12); MG Mandatory Fire Direction (9.4)].




This is interesting, it seem to be in contradiction to what is said in the ASLSK rules (1.2.1 SMC: "An unbroken, unpinned leader MAY use his leadership DRM to affect the performance of other personnel in his location.")

Could this be a deficit in the SK rules?

Also...does 'cannot decline use of...when performing...Rally attempt' means that I cannot do a self-rally in the same location that I have a good order non-zero leader? (what if he was a zero leader?)


I don't know about the first one.

The second one, a unit can never perform auto-rally if there is a GO Leader in the same Location.


Yes I think its like that in the ASLRB, but again is not strictly said so in the SK.
 
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Bryan Martin
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I think it's pretty clear. 1.2.1 is the description of what a single man counter is, and that it has a leadership modifier that can be used to modify things during the course of the game.

ASLSK1 RB
3.2.1 Effects: NMC: An unpinned, Good Order leader will apply his leadership DRM to other units (including lower morale leaders) in the target location if he passes his MC unharmed, but not to himself.

There's no choice there. The leader will apply his modifier to the morale check.
 
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Erez Ben-Aharon
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bunkfoss wrote:

I think it's pretty clear. 1.2.1 is the description of what a single man counter is, and that it has a leadership modifier that can be used to modify things during the course of the game.

ASLSK1 RB
3.2.1 Effects: NMC: An unpinned, Good Order leader will apply his leadership DRM to other units (including lower morale leaders) in the target location if he passes his MC unharmed, but not to himself.

There's no choice there. The leader will apply his modifier to the morale check.


I see where youa re getting at, and it is about semantics.

To me, the inclusion of MAY in the sentence
("MAY use his LD DRM") suggest optionality that "WILL" does not.

The fact that it appears in the SMC section rather than another section is irrelevant (there are many rules in the SKRB that appears in remote, desolate, and inconsistent locations but still apply).

If there is no optionality (and I agree with you there isn't, based on the authority of the ASLRB), then why not just say "WILL use his LD DRM"?) -- even in the SMC section?

Not having it in both sections creates confusion when looking up the rule of whether it may be used or not...if I stumble upon the 1.2.1 section to look it up - I will believe it is optional, if rather I stumble on it in the other section - I will believe it is mandatory.



 
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Martí Cabré

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If the wording is different in two places, I think it's clear that the rules could be worded more accurately. The ASL rules always strive to avoid confusion and double meanings.

Someone should check if it has been corrected in the Advanced Squad Leader: Starter Kit Expansion Pack #1, which has the latest version of the rules. And if it is not, PM

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whom I believe is the keeper of the SK rules.
 
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Martí Cabré wrote:
...whom I believe is the keeper of the SK rules.

Whoa there... I'm just a volunteer proofreader; I don't have any official role with MMP. The "keeper" of the ASLSK rules (and the ASL rules as well) is MMP's Perry Cocke.

In this case of leadership usage, I think the current ASLSK EP #1 rulebook is correct, but it could probably be worded more clearly.

The use of "may" in rule 1.2.1 is correct, because there are situations in which the use of leadership is optional (primarily IFT fire attacks).

And the use of "will" in rule 3.2.3 NMC (rule 3.2.1 NMC in the ASLSK #1 rulebook) is also correct, because use of leadership is mandatory on morale checks.

In general, the ASLSK rules will always be less precise than the full ASL rules, simply because they have to fit into so few pages. MMP tries to refine and improve the ASLSK rules with each new edition, but they will never be perfect.
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Erez Ben-Aharon
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richfam wrote:
Martí Cabré wrote:
...whom I believe is the keeper of the SK rules.

Whoa there... I'm just a volunteer proofreader; I don't have any official role with MMP. The "keeper" of the ASLSK rules (and the ASL rules as well) is MMP's Perry Cocke.

In this case of leadership usage, I think the current ASLSK EP #1 rulebook is correct, but it could probably be worded more clearly.

The use of "may" in rule 1.2.1 is correct, because there are situations in which the use of leadership is optional (primarily IFT fire attacks).

And the use of "will" in rule 3.2.3 NMC (rule 3.2.1 NMC in the ASLSK #1 rulebook) is also correct, because use of leadership is mandatory on morale checks.

In general, the ASLSK rules will always be less precise than the full ASL rules, simply because they have to fit into so few pages. MMP tries to refine and improve the ASLSK rules with each new edition, but they will never be perfect.


Nice...I guess though I'm still not sure about 'rally' per se, because there is nothing in the SK rules (that I know of) that disallows an MMC self-rally if there is a GO leader present. So assuming there is a 6+1 GO leader and a broken MMC. I understand under full ASL that broken MMC cannot self-rally (it must be rallied by the GO leader), but it doesn't seem to state that in the SK rule. Given that, the use of "MAY" now becomes important because could you now try to self-rally the MMC without having to use the leader (with the crappy LD DRM?)...I probably will still play it with the ASL rules, but was wondering whether it was omitted on purpose for the SK purposes.
 
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Jay Richardson
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abeheron wrote:
Nice...I guess though I'm still not sure about 'rally' per se, because there is nothing in the SK rules (that I know of) that disallows an MMC self-rally if there is a GO leader present. So assuming there is a 6+1 GO leader and a broken MMC. I understand under full ASL that broken MMC cannot self-rally (it must be rallied by the GO leader), but it doesn't seem to state that in the SK rule. Given that, the use of "MAY" now becomes important because could you now try to self-rally the MMC without having to use the leader (with the crappy LD DRM?)

It's not really an issue:

* Self-rally: +1 DRM for self-rally

* Regular rally with 6+1 leader: +1 DRM for leadership

There's no difference; an equal chance to rally either way. You would have a very slight chance of leader creation with a self-rally (5.3 Field Promotions)... probably less than a 2% chance of it happening.

The only time you would definitely want to self-rally instead of being rallied by a leader is if the leader was a wounded 6+1 leader (effectively a 5+2 leader). That would give you a +2 DRM for leadership, which is worse than self-rally.

But when was the last time you saw a wounded 6+1 try to rally someone?
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Erez Ben-Aharon
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richfam wrote:
abeheron wrote:
Nice...I guess though I'm still not sure about 'rally' per se, because there is nothing in the SK rules (that I know of) that disallows an MMC self-rally if there is a GO leader present. So assuming there is a 6+1 GO leader and a broken MMC. I understand under full ASL that broken MMC cannot self-rally (it must be rallied by the GO leader), but it doesn't seem to state that in the SK rule. Given that, the use of "MAY" now becomes important because could you now try to self-rally the MMC without having to use the leader (with the crappy LD DRM?)

It's not really an issue:

* Self-rally: +1 DRM for self-rally

* Regular rally with 6+1 leader: +1 DRM for leadership

There's no difference; an equal chance to rally either way. You would have a very slight chance of leader creation with a self-rally (5.3 Field Promotions)... probably less than a 2% chance of it happening.

The only time you would definitely want to self-rally instead of being rallied by a leader is if the leader was a wounded 6+1 leader (effectively a 5+2 leader). That would give you a +2 DRM for leadership, which is worse than self-rally.

But when was the last time you saw a wounded 6+1 try to rally someone?


ah...could happen, consider it is more likely for a 6 morale leader to be wounded than an 8 morale one ...and if that leader just happened to be in the hex with other MMC also broken by the same attack, that raises the question - can I (under SK rules) choose to ignore the leader and just self-rally the MMC in the same hex (with the addition 1/36 change of leader creation...which will more likely be better than a 5+2))?
 
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A morale check is not optional, so use of a positive LM is also not refusable. Fire attacks and rally attempts are optional, therefore use of the positive LM is dependent on whether the activity is engaged in or not.
 
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6+1's are less likely to be wounded than any other leaders because players learn very quickly that letting your opponent shoot at a 6+1 is a bad idea. A 6+1 is usually most useful when he's kept well away from the enemy.

And note that the chance of leader creation is less than 1/36; that just gives you a chance to roll on the Leader Creation Table, where there will often be at least a 40% chance of getting no leader at all.

But as to your specific question:

Erez Ben-Aharon wrote:
can I (under SK rules) choose to ignore the leader and just self-rally the MMC in the same hex

No. The definition of Self Rally in rule section 2.0 states that it occurs when a Good Order leader is not present. Thus, self rally cannot occur when a Good Order leader is present.
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Erez Ben-Aharon
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richfam wrote:
6+1's are less likely to be wounded than any other leaders because players learn very quickly that letting your opponent shoot at a 6+1 is a bad idea. A 6+1 is usually most useful when he's kept well away from the enemy.

And note that the chance of leader creation is less than 1/36; that just gives you a chance to roll on the Leader Creation Table, where there will often be at least a 40% chance of getting no leader at all.

But as to your specific question:

Erez Ben-Aharon wrote:
can I (under SK rules) choose to ignore the leader and just self-rally the MMC in the same hex

No. The definition of Self Rally in rule section 2.0 states that it occurs when a Good Order leader is not present. Thus, self rally cannot occur when a Good Order leader is present.



Cbeers, I can see it now in the keyword definitions, but sure would have helped to have also been under the rally section ...at least I have a place to point when asked.

Many thanks.
 
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Martí Cabré

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richfam wrote:
Martí Cabré wrote:
...whom I believe is the keeper of the SK rules.

Whoa there... I'm just a volunteer proofreader; I don't have any official role with MMP. The "keeper" of the ASLSK rules (and the ASL rules as well) is MMP's Perry Cocke.


Of course...

I think that having English as third language did not help me here...

I wanted to say that you have a direct link to the powers that update the SK rules so you were the "gate" to them in BGG. Which maybe is not true, of course. But it brought you here in the discussion, which solved the discussion. So all is good.
 
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Erez Ben-Aharon
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marticabre wrote:
richfam wrote:
Martí Cabré wrote:
...whom I believe is the keeper of the SK rules.

Whoa there... I'm just a volunteer proofreader; I don't have any official role with MMP. The "keeper" of the ASLSK rules (and the ASL rules as well) is MMP's Perry Cocke.


Of course...

I think that having English as third language did not help me here...

I wanted to say that you have a direct link to the powers that update the SK rules so you were the "gate" to them in BGG. Which maybe is not true, of course. But it brought you here in the discussion, which solved the discussion. So all is good.


Jay be the representative of holy Perry on earth?
(kinda like the pope? )

We're not worthy!!! We're not worthy!!!
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