Georgios P.
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I've been toying with the idea of expanding the game to make it even more inscrutable when it comes to the motives of other players.

Secret Alliances


At the beginning of the game, 2 cards are dealt out to each player in secret: an alliance card and a dominion card. The alliance card determines who you're secretly helping to win, the dominion card determines how many castles/stronghold you must hold exactly in order to win by secret alliance.

Alliance cards feature all six houses.

Dominion cards give a requirement. The numbers range from 0-5. (For extra fun, one could think up specific splits between castles and strongholds. Something like 0 castles / 2 strongholds or 4 castles / 0 strongholds, but I haven't really looked into that possibility much yet.)

Example:
You play as House Stark, and your alliance card says Baratheon, while your dominion card says 4. If Baratheon wins the game, while you countrol 4 castles/strongholds you get to reveal your alliance and dominion card and snatch victory away from that player.

Special rule
:
An additional seventh alliance card is shuffled in, with the name Targaryen on it. If you draw this card, you get to ignore your dominion card and win the game when two players tie at the end of turn 10. This winning condition supersedes the regular tie-breaking rules.
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Ivan Alaiz
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I like the general idea of giving a deeper diplomacy background to the game , that could be attained also by having two players winning the game (not one snatching victory from another one).

The idea behind is that a losing house could throw their power behind another one and push for their victory. I also like the idea of a secondary condition to make this happen (like a minimun of castles but it might be a different one, like controlling a certain set of territories or a minimun army...)

This feature only works in 5-6 player games, no less.

If this kind of thing was made into an official expansion it would add a lot more of depth to the game.

My proposal (remember, only feasible for 5+ player games):

Only one set of 18 cards, 1 per player dealt at the beginning of the game.Once per game, before turn 8 a player may discard his secret card and draw another one, he must keep that card for the remainder of the game (after all things do change in politics...)

The player holding the crow no longer gets to peek into the wildings deck, instead he might have a look into one of the other players secret mission. This also gives the lannisters a bit of an edge that reflects well their political savy.

Each card would depict 1 house as your "secret mission" and a specific set of conditions: (if your secret mission depicts your own house, you do not have secret mission)
Holding a specific Territory or set of territories (may be the seat of another active player)
A minimun of logistics
A minimun of power chips


Card Example 1:

Logo Stark:

Conditions for allied win: You hold Lannisport, have logistics X and X power chips.

Conditions for Snatching victory: In addition to the above you also control Kings landing with at least 3 strength.

Card Example 2

Logo Lannister

Allied win: You hold Highgarden, blackwater and the Reach, and Y power chips.

Victory snatch: You also control Lannisport in addition to the above

If all these conditions are met you are the true power behind the throne! Varys and Littlefinger are your drinking buddies, you also win the game or snatch victory from the original victor.

Also note that these cards might be more powerful fro some houses than others, for example if Tyrell was dealt Card Example 2 he might be in a very good position to try to snatch the victory away.

What do you think?
 
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Wasyl Kurek
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I think that, properly done and balanced, it could add another, absolutely awesome, layer of strategy to the game. I'd love to see expansion like this.
 
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Scott Awesome
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Joe Dizzy wrote:
Special rule[/u]:
An additional seventh alliance card is shuffled in, with the name Targaryen on it. If you draw this card, you get to ignore your dominion card and win the game when two players tie at the end of turn 10. This winning condition supersedes the regular tie-breaking rules.


What if you draw you own house card? Not only do you lose out on being able to ally your way to victory, but you also have the knowledge that nobody else at the table is going to be your ally. That's a bit harsh for a 1/6 or 1/7 chance.

Maybe each house gets a set of 6 alliance cards (other 5 plus targ) and draws one from the pile? Then again, everyone could end up allied with the same house.

It sounds like a great idea, but the implementation will be tricky. Maybe include a way to switch your alliance card with the leftover one if you use 7?
 
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Wasyl Kurek
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Or you could simply redraw if you get yourself.
 
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Scott Awesome
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Aedrill wrote:
Or you could simply redraw if you get yourself.


But then everyone at the tables knows you're switching out your your own alliance card with something else. And what if 2 or 3 get their own? Then you can easily know who everyone after the first is allied with.
 
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Wasyl Kurek
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You're right. Let's think if getting yourself is a bad thing.

On the one hand no one is helping you. Nobody is trying to help you win. That might be a problem.

On the other hand, you know for A fact that if someone tries to convince you they're on your side, they're lying. This might help a lot.

Also, nobody will snatch the victory from you.

I'm not sure. It's difficult to decide if it's better to prevent picking yourself, or not.
 
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Dave Dave
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I like the idea.
To prevent drawing your own house as an ally you could, if there are 3 cards for each house, initially draw 4 cards and pick one.

Downside to this would be that the last player knows 3 alliance cards which aren't in play. Second to last player to draw his cards knows that 2 of the 3 cards he didn't pick aren't in play and so on.

I want to see 18 interesting alliance cards, please :-)
 
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Dave Dave
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While thinking about it I came to the conclusion that making specific territories mandatory isn't the way I would go, as I don't see how Stark would ever get to the Reach (just as an example).
So this has to be more generic, like "control five territories with a supply barrel" or something like that. Which again doesn't look very interesting to me.

So, I wrote down a few ideas.

______________________________________________________________

Allied with: Targaryen

"Chaos in the Realm" (snatched victory)
If round 10 ended without anyone getting his seventh castle, you win regardless of the number of castles and strongholds under your control.

"Preparing the Dragonlords Landing" (snatched victory)
When anybody claims victory and you have a power token but no troops in either Storms End, Searoad Marches, Flint's Finger or Cracklaw Point and there are no ships in at least one adjacent sea, you claim victory instead. (This trumps every other Snatch)

This is all about preparing the Targaryens invasion.


Allied with: Lannister

"Mutual Enemies" (joint victory)
At any time, if Lannister controls at least five castles or strongholds and you control at least six castles or strongholds, you may reveal this card.
If you do so, Lannister and you win as allies.

"Loyality Money Can Buy" (snatched victory)
If Lannister would claim victory for taking the seventh castle or stronghold and you have at least 5 power icons printed on areas you control and more available Power than Lannister, you claim victory instead.

Lannisters like gold. To me, power icons are gold.


Allied with: Stark

"Master of Ships" (joint victory)
At any time, if Stark controls five castles or strongholds and you control at least 3 of the following seas, you may reveal this card: Bay of Ice, Sunset Sea, West Summer Sea, East Summer Sea, Shipbreaker Bay, The Narrow Sea, The Shivering Sea.
If you do so, Stark and you win as allies

"Manning the Wall" (snatched victory)
If Stark would claim victory for taking the seventh castle or stronghold and you bidded more than Stark on every wildling attack, you claim victory instead.

Being so close to the wall, Stark and Wildlings somehow have to be tied together.


Allied with: Greyjoy

"The Iron Price" (joint victory)
At any time, if Greyjoy controls five castles or strongholds and you have killed 5 enemy units, you may reveal this card.
If you do so, Greyjoy and you win as allies.

"Feast or Famine" (snatched victory)
If Greyjoy would claim victory for taking the seventh castle or stronghold and you are at least two spots above him on the supply track, you claim victory instead.

The Iron Islands aren't very fertile, Greyjoy needs supply more than everything else.


Allied with: Baratheon

"Mutual Blackmail" (joint victory)
At any time, if Baratheon controls five castles or strongholds and you are in possesion of at least one dominance token and not below position 3 on any influence track, you may reveal this card.
If you do so, Baratheon and you win as allies.

"Condemned by the Council" (snatched victory)
If Baratheon would claim victory for taking the seventh castle or stronghold and you are above him on at least two influence tracks and not below position 3 on any, you claim victory instead.

Baratheon sits the Iron Throne from the beginning. The only thing he needs is a reliable small council. Influence Tracks are my small council.


Allied with: Tyrell

"Tourney for the Hand" (joint victory)
At any time, if Tyrell controls five castles or strongholds and your and his combined printed house card strength (only count available cards) is higher than that of the combined printed strength of three other players of your choice, you may reveal this card.
If you do so, Tyrell and you win as allies.

"King's Champion" (snatched victory)
If Tyrell would claim victory for taking the seventh castle or stronghold and your combined printed house card strength is higher than that of any other player, you claim victory instead (only count strength from house cards in your hand).

Tyrell to me is chivalry in its purest form.


Allied with: Martell

"Thundering Calvary" (joint victory)
At any time, if Martell controls five castles or strongholds and you have 5 knights and 2 Siege Engines on the board, you may reveal this card.
If you do so, Martell and you win as allies.

"Waste Their Time" (snatched victory)
If Martell would claim victory for taking the seventh castle or stronghold and you won your first battle against any player after he did, you claim victory instead.

With Martell, everything is about the waiting game.

______________________________________________________________

After I had all this stuff in front of me I decided it might mix things up a bit better if everything was distributed randomly.

First you get the house you alli with, second you get a random joint victory condition and third you get a random snatched victory condition.

This would perhaps lead to strange combinations. For example, why would Martell care if you took care of the wildlings?


Last but not least, balancing would have to be done.
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Scott Awesome
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Aedrill wrote:
You're right. Let's think if getting yourself is a bad thing.

On the one hand no one is helping you. Nobody is trying to help you win. That might be a problem.

On the other hand, you know for A fact that if someone tries to convince you they're on your side, they're lying. This might help a lot.

Also, nobody will snatch the victory from you.

I'm not sure. It's difficult to decide if it's better to prevent picking yourself, or not.


Or, you have the 7 proposed alliance cards, and in reverse iron throne order, each player draws 2 and shuffles one back into the deck. Then, nobody will get stuck with their own card, and the players higher up the list get a slightly better amount of information on what may or may not still be floating around in the alliance deck.
 
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Chris Ponder
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Sounds like the betrayal cards in Rex
 
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Dave Dave
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So, I created an alliance-card-generator (probably only works in up to date browsers).
There are 3 "mutual victory" conditions and 3 "snatch victory" conditions for each house except targaryen, which only has one each.

A few of these conditions can be on cards of several houses. this is mostly because I ran out of ideas.

This creates 9 cards for each house + the one for Targaryen.

I would be glad to get some opinions on condition design and balance.


Do you think that it be possible for several players to have the same house has ally?
Could lead to 5 players having Lannister as ally (worst case).
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Kai Robinson
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Dave, should I assume this is the generator used in our game#69? Also is it or is it not possible that more than one person has the same ally?
 
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Dave Dave
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Yes, the alliance cards were created with exactly that generator.

I took care that each house has 1 ally maximum. So if there are two people claiming to have you as their alliance card, one of them is lieing.
 
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Kai Robinson
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Excellent, thanks for the quick reply.
 
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Stoodster
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Keggy wrote:
What if you draw you own house card? Not only do you lose out on being able to ally your way to victory, but you also have the knowledge that nobody else at the table is going to be your ally. That's a bit harsh for a 1/6 or 1/7 chance.

You could just reshuffle and deal again until no one has their own house card. Not very elegant, but simple.
 
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Jon S
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An easy fix to prevent people from getting their own house would be to create Victory conditions that are particularly harder but have no aligning house. Create one Allied/snatched victory card for each house (all 7), and at least 7 other cards with more difficult conditions. Everyone draws 2 and discards one at the beginning.

In either case, multiple people can 'snatch' victory from the same player, or even each other. Example:

Stark wins, but Greyjoy (secrete ally of Stark) has fulfilled his requirements to steal victory. Oddly, Stark is Greyjoy's secrete ally, and has also fulfilled his requirements to snatch victory. Do they both win?

Stark and Greyjoy are both secrete allies of Lannnister and both fulfilled secrete victory requirements. Do they both win?

I can think of more complicated events. I would design only 7 cards for the 7 houses. Anything further can lead to too many complications. Plus, it is a huge benefit to have your own house card: no one can betray you.
 
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Dave Dave
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WarColonel wrote:
An easy fix to prevent people from getting their own house would be to create Victory conditions that are particularly harder but have no aligning house. Create one Allied/snatched victory card for each house (all 7), and at least 7 other cards with more difficult conditions. Everyone draws 2 and discards one at the beginning.

I have no idea how such a condition could look like. Example would be appreciated.

WarColonel wrote:
In either case, multiple people can 'snatch' victory from the same player, or even each other. Example:

Stark wins, but Greyjoy (secrete ally of Stark) has fulfilled his requirements to steal victory. Oddly, Stark is Greyjoy's secrete ally, and has also fulfilled his requirements to snatch victory. Do they both win?

Stark and Greyjoy are both secrete allies of Lannnister and both fulfilled secrete victory requirements. Do they both win?

I can think of more complicated events. I would design only 7 cards for the 7 houses. Anything further can lead to too many complications. Plus, it is a huge benefit to have your own house card: no one can betray you.

To circumvent these "snatch-loops" with the conditions I created victory can only be snatched from someone who wins by getting his 7th victory point.
Of course if multiple houses can snatch victory from the winner, that's still a problem.
But that's why I made sure there's only one ally card for each house in play (at least in the PBF I am moderating that's the case)
 
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