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World War II: Barbarossa to Berlin» Forums » Rules

Subject: confusing combat example rss

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JOE LIBRANDI
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On page 11 of the rulebook, the example under rule 11.3 TAKING LOSSES, says that if the loss number was 5, the reduced panzer unit must be permanently eliminated (since it didn't have an SCU in reserve.)

If the loss factor of the panzer unit is 3, wouldn't taking two step losses equal 6 factors? Why would the second step have to be reduced (causing the unit's elimination)?



 
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Darrell Pavitt
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You must take 5 losses if possible, but not 6.

The reduced panzer LCU is worth 3, and the panzer SCU is worth 2, that total is 5.

If there is a panzer SCU available, you lose 1 step from the LCU (3 points), replacing it with the SCU, and then reduce the SCU (2 points, total 5).

You may not take a step loss from the full strength infantry, as that would leave points left over that could be taken if you had reduced the panzer instead.

In addition, you can't take a step from the infantry plus one from the panzer (total 6) or both from the infantry (also 6).

But, in the example, there are no SCUs available, according to the rule, you must treat it as if there was one available but totally remove the panzer. In effect, you are removing the panzer and replacin it with a (non-existant) SCU, then reducing the (non-existant) SCU. The Panzer LCU is gone, in any case.
 
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Tom Stup
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Had the panzer unit in the example been full-strength, the example would be wrong. However, since the panzer was already reduced going into the combat, the example is correct.

When you reduce an LCU that's already been reduced once, you remove it and put a corresponding SCU, from the reserve box, in its place. Since a Panzer SCU has a loss factor of 2, you would also flip the SCU to reach the total loss factor of 5. However, in the example, there's no Panzer SCU in the reserve box, so the LCU is permanently eliminated. The permanent elimination rule is there to force you to keep some SCUs in the reserve to serve as the third and fourth steps for LCUs. An LCU actually has four steps, the last two steps being represented by an SCU from the reserve box. This is why when a LCU is eliminated due to OOS or failure to retreat, you also eliminate an SCU from the reserve box.
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Ethan McKinney
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In that example, the Panzer LCU starts reduced and there's no Panzer SCU in the reserve box.

11.3 states, in part:
If a player has LCUs involved in a combat with no appropriate SCUs in the Reserve Box available for replacing them, and it would be possible to fulfill more of the Loss Number inflicted in that combat if such an SCU were in the Reserve Box, losses must be taken as if such an SCU existed, resulting in the permanent elimination of the LCU.

So, we look at the "imaginary" Panzer SCU in the case where the LF is 4. If we took the step loss on the Panzer LCU and then reduced the Panzer SCU, that would be 5 points. We can't do that because you're never required to take more losses than the LF. We can't replace the Panzer LCU with an SCU (3 points) because their isn't one. Our final option is to reduce the infantry LCU, which absorbs 3 points. The remaining 1 point bounces.

By contrast, if the LF is 5, the 3 points from replacing the Panzer LCU with the "imaginary" SCU plus the 2 points for taking a step loss with the SCU is 5, exactly equal to the LF. Remember, you have to come as close as possible to the LF without exceeding it.

Taking a step loss on the infantry would only absorb 3, with the remaining 2 wasted, so that's not a legal option.
 
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JOE LIBRANDI
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Ok- so I can't just take 3 LF from the full strength infantry unit and pass on the other two points. I'm forced to eliminate the panzer unit.

If I only had the reduced panzer, wouldn't it also be eliminated on a 4 result, too?

I'm still a little confused, but I think I understand better now.

Thanks.
 
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Darrell Pavitt
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In the original example, no, because after losing either the infantry or panzer step for 3, there is only 1 point left. The second infantry step is worth 3, while the (non-existant) panzer SCU would be worth 2 points, so in either case you can skip the last point to prevent overpaying.

If you had just the panzer (reduced), the final point loss is still too small to reduce an SCU, so it would normally be ignored, leaving a full strength armour SCU. Since you don't have an SCU in the pool, however, the panzer would be lost completely.

Moral of story: make sure you have replacements in the pool, or make sure you have a cheap unit with your expensive ones to mop up the losses.

 
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JOE LIBRANDI
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Thanks.

I really like the game, but there are so many exceptions, special cases, and counter-intuitive concepts, (not to mention lack of rules clarity and examples of play) that it's really taking me some time to grasp the rules.

Maybe if I played PoG first, this wouldn't be a problem.
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Noel Houben
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Hi Joe,

This play aid on the Geek might help to get the turn specific rules right:

http://files.boardgamegeek.com/file/download/8fgdb2smn0/Barb...?

I actually think BtB is lighter then PoG considering exceptions. Shifting Sands is probably the lightest of the PoG-inspired designs. To ┬┤comfort┬┤ you: If you learn one of these games, then the others will be a lot easier to grasp. B2B is an excellent game in my opinion, well worth the effort.

Cheers,
Noel
 
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JOE LIBRANDI
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Thanks, but it's not just the turn specific rules. The rules in general fot BtB are unclear and incomplete and basic concepts are not intuitive. Thank goodness I can get answers on the Geek. It used to take me weeks to get rules questions answered by mail.
 
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Bob Gibson
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joe6778 wrote:

Thanks.

I really like the game, but there are so many exceptions, special cases, and counter-intuitive concepts, (not to mention lack of rules clarity and examples of play) that it's really taking me some time to grasp the rules.

Maybe if I played PoG first, this wouldn't be a problem.

I really love PoG and feel that I feel I understand the game. However, for me, knowing PoG rules didn't necessarily translate well enough for me to fully understand WWII:BtB. I, too, still struggle a bit to remember all of the rule exceptions that you acknowledge make WWII:BtB difficult to grasp. At least with WWII:BtB I think I'll eventually master all of the exceptions, special rules, and concepts.

On the other hand, other games, such as For the People (which I'd really like to understand) are still just too confusing after several attempts, and will simply require much more of my time and diligence to eventually figure out. The motivation for me, at least, is that I know that these are all fine war games and that it's probably worth my effort to learn. I, too, rely heavily upon BBG to resolve questions that just are not apparent to me when reading the game rules.
 
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JOE LIBRANDI
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I didn't have as much difficulty with learning FTP as I have with BtB (except for FTP's naval rules.) I think what makes a game more difficult to learn is trying to remember all the exceptions and special rules. Instead of concentrating on strategy and tactics, I'm thinking: did I do this right?
 
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