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Subject: OL clogging the hall with large monsters... rss

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Derrek Kyzar
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I was reading a disturbing thread on the FFG site about an OL using the large monsters in open groups to choke the points so that he can win the race encounters and it seems that it is working a WHOLE lot more than it is failing. Can any other OL's that use this tactic report the same?

Not saying anything is wrong with the tactic, you are there to win, but in the thread it really makes things not fun for the party. Is it bad rolls, bad character selection, or what? Do there need to be some changes in the open monster group traits for certain encounters to keep from choosing large monsters?

About to have my first play session as the OL and I'm torn between trying this tactic and having it succeed so well that the players never want to play 2nd edition ever again...
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Zed TwoEggs
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You know what to do Derrek..

The classic answer is: No, the OL's main objective is not to win, but to facilitate all enjoying a thematic great game. Surely the OL can gain more satisfaction by trying different tactics. I don't think anyone wins in the mentioned situation..

Interesting catch though. I wonder if the testers picked up on it. I'm not sure how you'd "fix" it.
 
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Cody Konior
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zd00 wrote:
No, the OL's main objective is not to win


Since when? Maybe in traditional D&D it's not for the DM to win. But this is a competitive board game, it's made with winning in mind and is meant to have balanced sides.
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Jeremy Lennert
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The ultimate objective of all players in a game is to have a good time--that's what games are for.

But the immediate goal is to pursue the game's stated objective--the game is supposed to be a recipe for producing fun, and you're following the recipe's instructions. If that makes the game unfun, that's generally a problem with the game, not with the players.

The players may be able to house-rule the game to fix the problem, and I always encourage people to use the house-rules that are most fun for them...but if you just wanted to create your own recipe, you probably wouldn't have paid good money for the recipe book.

I don't know whether this is a real problem or not, but taking it as evidence that the players are doing something wrong is blaming the victim.
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Purple Paladin

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During first blood, if you can move mauler up to the entrance hallway fast enough, he can block it while the 5 goblins run behind him, and out the exit.

But I could just not bring myself to do it, because it's so mean to new players. Then again, they get the same reward reguardless, so perhaps it's better they learn that first scenario, rather than more important ones.

The movement in this game is so funky. I just can't wrap my head around being able to move through two enenmy units that are adjacent diagnolly. Seems so cheesey.

Could'nt they at least have made a Strengh roll required or it costs 2 movment points + 1 fatigue; or something to make it seem a tiny bit more difficult than saying "Excuse me; pardon me; comming through; thank you deadly monsters shoulder to shoulder for letting me walk by casually. . .
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Zed TwoEggs
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cody_au wrote:
zd00 wrote:
No, the OL's main objective is not to win


Since when? Maybe in traditional D&D it's not for the DM to win. But this is a competitive board game, it's made with winning in mind and is meant to have balanced sides.


Serious?

Na..
 
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Chris McDonald
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Purple Paladin wrote:
During first blood, if you can move mauler up to the entrance hallway fast enough, he can block it while the 5 goblins run behind him, and out the exit.


But since the players move first, this will only happen if they allow it to. But oops, I guess I'm blaming the victim.
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Justin
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I've blocked hallways with large monsters before with shadow dragons and it doesn't seem to break the game unless the heroes make a bad choice, and start playing D1 style by taking on the monsters first, objective second.

I think HauRuck is correct in saying that it's poor party makeup vs. dungeons. Some quests are more suited towards certain classes.
 
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Purple Paladin

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cfmcdonald wrote:
Purple Paladin wrote:
During first blood, if you can move mauler up to the entrance hallway fast enough, he can block it while the 5 goblins run behind him, and out the exit.


But since the players move first, this will only happen if they allow it to. But oops, I guess I'm blaming the victim.


Correct, but, the majority of players playing First Blood are new to the game, and have little or no knowleged of the strategies involved. Making them feel helpless as the goblins escape does not seem like a good way to introduce them to the game.
 
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Panu Halonen
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House rule for this would be great if problem is big.

here are some thoughts of house rules for this ''?problem?''

1.you can push large monsters a side(strength test)
2.scouts can run through them with same penalty as walking to water
3.in race type of quest you get one movement per turn for monsters

lets all hope that this is just bad luck and miss calculation on tactic so we all can play game and have fun
 
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Keith Collins
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lupin89 wrote:
House rule for this would be great if problem is big.

here are some thoughts of house rules for this ''?problem?''

1.you can push large monsters a side(strength test)
2.scouts can run through them with same penalty as walking to water
3.in race type of quest you get one movement per turn for monsters

lets all hope that this is just bad luck and miss calculation on tactic so we all can play game and have fun


Or .. Kill the monster?
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Ty D
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If you are introducing such novice players to a tactical game the best thing to do in my mind is really simple. As the overlord, why don't you give them a little advice? If they sound like they've decided on a course of action that will leave them all in the starting area why don't you just say, "Hey guys, if you all do that, I'll just do this and then you'll be stuck so maybe you should rethink your strategy?" The first quest has the same rewards win or lose so maybe giving them a little advice will let everybody play at full strength and then they'll get the hint in future chase / escape type encounters.
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Frank Franco
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Please tell me this thread isn't serious.
You're complaining about monsters protecting other monsters?!?! What the hell do you want them to do, just stand there and let the heroes go for the little guys?

Just houserule it that the overlord stays home if it's such a big problem.
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Panu Halonen
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MajMalfunction10 wrote:
lupin89 wrote:
House rule for this would be great if problem is big.

here are some thoughts of house rules for this ''?problem?''

1.you can push large monsters a side(strength test)
2.scouts can run through them with same penalty as walking to water
3.in race type of quest you get one movement per turn for monsters

lets all hope that this is just bad luck and miss calculation on tactic so we all can play game and have fun


Or .. Kill the monster?



also noticed that i highlight if and problem that some peoples that have this as problem may use if needed cause some players are better then others
 
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As the overlord of every game I've played, I've done this tactic with hit or miss success. It really depends on where the heros are positioned, as if the mage/warrior is in a position to due damage that monster could die or be crippled that turn. If the healer/scout is nearest, he'll usually live a round or 2.

Although combining this strategy with the universal overlord card that heals your monster 2d red dice then he'll make a great roadblock.

All in all, descent 2nd edition has a lot of strategies, but the game seems pretty balanced, nothing broken yet.
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Derrek Kyzar
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MrSumOne wrote:
I've blocked hallways with large monsters before with shadow dragons and it doesn't seem to break the game unless the heroes make a bad choice, and start playing D1 style by taking on the monsters first, objective second.

I think HauRuck is correct in saying that it's poor party makeup vs. dungeons. Some quests are more suited towards certain classes.


Ok, I'm happy to hear this. The group I play with are experienced D1 players so hoping it won't be a big problem.

Seems like it would be hard to kill a Shadow Dragon with starting weapons with his 2 grey defense, but sometimes the dice hate.

Here is the thread I was referring to.. should have posted it in the OP.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?e...
 
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Cody Konior
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Purple Paladin wrote:
make it seem a tiny bit more difficult than saying "Excuse me; pardon me; comming through; thank you deadly monsters shoulder to shoulder for letting me walk by casually. . .


If it helps, the way my brain retcons it is:
Step 1. Give the movement an official sounding name. "Parrying Command Roll."
Step 2. Flavor text. "The [hero] distracts the monsters with a [guttural cry | flame illusion | swish of their sword] and dives between the two monsters, thrusting themselves into harm's way and ready to [run | attack]."

I will now fall back onto the Homer excuse. "It's my first day."
 
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Jon Martin
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Why do people seem to think that the OL should not play to win? It is not D&D. Your one and only goal is smash the heroes' heads and shtomp them and squeeeesh them.

If trying to win means that people have less fun, your group shouldn't play games that are adversarial.

Also, there are characters that can slip by, like Tomble. Letting anyone slip by devalues his ability.
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Bryan Livingston
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As OL I've used this strategy to beat the tar out of players. If I'm with new players I will usually explain what I'm going to do before so that they have a chance to counter.

As OL I love it when players win, but I almost always play hard.
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Pete aka The Masked Minstrel
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This is a competitive game between the Overlord and the Heroes, but if the Overlord player constantly wins in a non-fun way, it will kill the enjoyment for all and then they won't want to bring the game to the table.
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seb seb2
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Purple Paladin wrote:
During first blood, if you can move mauler up to the entrance hallway fast enough, he can block it while the 5 goblins run behind him, and out the exit.




but,isn't the best way to lose ?(it seems this quest is impossible for the Ovelord to win with 2 heroes anyway)
You don't want to put Mauler closest to the heroes...or he will die quickly and you will lose.
 
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tydobbs wrote:
If you are introducing such novice players to a tactical game the best thing to do in my mind is really simple. As the overlord, why don't you give them a little advice?


Agreed. I posted this:

* ROLL RED DICE. Yellow dice won't take down a 2-Grey dice monster unless you have a special ability to back it up. Pierce +2 cancels a white die, as does the Longsword's Surge. Stun is good!

* BLOW THROUGH YOUR SPECIAL ABILITIES ASAP. The more monsters you mow down or Stun during your first turn, the fewer units he has on the board to control the terrain. Oh, and he'll have fewer units to attack you with.

* BLOW THROUGH YOUR FATIGUE. After you engage the monsters, you should be attacking twice per turn!

* SPEED IS ESSENTIAL: Players need to move ASAP to control the board.

* SEARCH: At most, a Quest will give you 25 gp per hero. Searches can double this.
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Justin Smith

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Purple Paladin wrote:
During first blood, if you can move mauler up to the entrance hallway fast enough, he can block it while the 5 goblins run behind him, and out the exit.

But I could just not bring myself to do it, because it's so mean to new players. Then again, they get the same reward reguardless, so perhaps it's better they learn that first scenario, rather than more important ones.


Players move first and they can easily take out 2-3 goblins before you get a turn. Then you are stuck waiting for them to re spawn as the players eat your barricading Ettin.

Though, since there is no negative to losing First Blood and it is so heavily slanted in the player's favor anyhow, Throwing your Ettin directly at them to die and stop them from reaching any search tokens past him is a great idea. Use his throw ability to toss any heros who get by him back to the correct side.

If the OL puts something in the way, kill it ASAP and move on, then just keep ahead of it. If you have to, fatigue move 1 space into the doorway after it's dead to stop something else from taking up the same position.
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Ian Molloy
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I have only played once and only a couple of quests so I may be thr wrong person to comment but here are my thoughts:

1. It is a tactical boardgame and not a GM based RP game. The OL is trying to win. I appreciate the need to keep things fun.
2. If the OL "allows" the Heros to win every quest will that not make it an easy fight for them later? In which case does that not take the fun out of it?
3. The Heroes go first and can avoid getting blocked in.

Like I say I have only played once so far so can only go on what I experience in that one game.

I would be interested to hear from someone who has lost many quests as the OL and played a full campaign. Does this mean the Finale is a walk in the park for the Heroes?
 
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Ken Marley
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My experience is that this a necessary part of the tactical game and something the heroes and the OL need to be aware of. Since the Heroes usually go first, if they use fatigue they can get around most of these problems.

Most of the interesting tactical battles I have had so far involved avoiding/getting into a situation where one side or the other is blocking or prevented from blocking some hallway.

I have used blocking myself as the heroes even in 2 hero games.

It is important to know in this game when movement is more important then attacking. In some quests, it is more important to avoid the monsters and run for critical locations like blocking hallways. In some quests it is more important to kill monsters quickly. One of the best things about this game is that no one strategy is right for every quest.

Note: the Thief's tumble ability is probably his best ability. For 1 stamina you can run through monsters. I wish this had been my first skill pick instead of my 3rd in my current campaign.
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