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Subject: Deck Out Win Condition - Damage by Drawing rss

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Mike Arlington

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I was a big fan of the MegaMan:Netwarrior TCG that used a deck out combat system. They started with a 59 card deck and damage would be dealt in about the 4-7 range, though most of the time you could only get a good attack like that every other turn.

Although I didn't play as much of it, another one you could research is WWE Raw Deal. I believe it also had deck out as the victory condition.


If you're worried about the game being over too quickly when you remove a lot of cards from a deck, you can always work in 'healing' mechanics that let you return cards to your deck from your discard.
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Nate K
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Oh, interesting. Elemental Clash: The Basic Set has a similar mechanic, but the cards all go straight to the discard pile. Giving the defending player some or all of the cards to put in their hand is a neat idea; like a built-in catch-up mechanic. Could you throw out some card ideas so I can visualize how a turn or two might play out?
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B C Z
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Highlander: The Card Game had this as it's primary mechanic.

Cards were life, damage was permanent loss of cards from your deck.

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Jessey
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3XXXDDD wrote:

Kurthl33t wrote:
Could you throw out some card ideas so I can visualize how a turn or two might play out?


I would if I could really. Still stuck on this part.


You might find the best way to get past this part is to make up a dozen or so cards and 'play it out'. I feel like I say this every day, but no amount of theorycrafting can substitute for moving physical bits around.

That said, your problem might be solved by an action allowance mechanic. It sounds like having lots of cards in hand is a powerful thing not just because it's a lot of options but because a bunch of cards in hand can quickly turn into a bunch of cards in play. If players have a restriction on the actions (or cards) that can be taken in a turn then the damaged players 'catch up advantage' is from the options now available to them, not the mass of cards they get to play.

Make sense?
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Tommy Occhipinti
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Another option would be to play an existing TCG with this slight modification to give you an idea. Make two generic 30 card Magic decks and agree that damage = card draw for the opponent. It won't be balanced, but it will give you an idea if there is potential there.

My inclination is to not like this system at all, by the way. The best part of this sort of game is when you get to draw a card at the start of your turn. The other day a Magic designer jokingly proposed a card with the effect "Choose one: Draw 7 cards or you win the game", the joke being that good Magic players would have a hard time choosing anything over drawing 7 cards. Thus, obviously, the idea of my opponent drawing a ton of cards when I do well doesn't have inherent appeal to me, but that is just my bias. Maybe in the system you're proposing it works really well.

One system I'd look at if I were doing something like this is the Summoner Wars system, where you can discard cards from your hand for "magic points" to play cards. That way when a player takes a lot of damage and draws 15 cards or something, they don't dump 15 cards into play (as that would lead to a board state far too complicated for anyone to understand) but perhaps they discard 13 of the cards for magic that they use to play two awesome things.
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Jessey
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3XXXDDD wrote:
Granted, there isn't a limit to the amount of Resource Cards you can play for turn (because I actually focuses players on being punished for doing so rather than preventing it from happening).


If this is the case then I resubmit my prior sentiment: you should prototype 'mini-decks' and try the mechanic in the environment it is intended to function in. Just enough to have one player attack the other and cause damage then the other player to use their newly buffed up hand to retaliate. If it's fundamentally broken it will be immediately obvious, and probably also obvious why.
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Matthew Proper-Lee
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Super Hero Squad Card Game just hit and uses the deck out and deck as life system as well. It's a lighter card game, but includes rules for attacks/blocks, healing, and possible continuous damage.
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Nate K
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3XXXDDD wrote:
Just a question to everyone, of the presented mechanics which do you prefer?

X = Damage you took

1.Draw X,
2.Reveal X, Add 1, Discard X-1
3.Draw X, Then Discard X.


What do you mean by "Add 1" in option 2? Because I like the idea of revealing cards equal to the number of damage received, selecting one to add to my hand, then discarding the rest. This gives players options and a way to come back from a losing position, while still encouraging players to attack.

The downside is that players will not want to attack for smaller increments. They will always want to hit the defending player for as much damage as possible.
 
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Nate K
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3XXXDDD wrote:
kurthl33t wrote:
3XXXDDD wrote:
Just a question to everyone, of the presented mechanics which do you prefer?

X = Damage you took

1.Draw X,
2.Reveal X, Add 1, Discard X-1
3.Draw X, Then Discard X.


What do you mean by "Add 1" in option 2? Because I like the idea of revealing cards equal to the number of damage received, selecting one to add to my hand, then discarding the rest. This gives players options and a way to come back from a losing position, while still encouraging players to attack.

The downside is that players will not want to attack for smaller increments. They will always want to hit the defending player for as much damage as possible.


Basically that, add one to your hand.


Got it. Well I like that option the best. You would have to do something to encourage players to attack for small amounts of damage when they can, though. Maybe have some of the small creatures have an ability that prevents the defender from drawing cards off their damage.
 
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Dylan Green
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I like option 3 because it makes the player make interesting decisions (Do I keep this one or that one...) and because it keeps hand size controllable.
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Typh erion
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I also like option 3 the best.

If you have decking out as the win condition then there is a danger that players will miss out on playing with the cards they most want to use, possibly causing them frustration.

This is why I believe if you make decking out the win condition, you also need mechanics that allow players to interact with the cards that get decked in some manner.

I think your draw x, then discard x solution is perfect because it will almost always allow players to save the card they care about the most. It also lets them dig through their deck for answers faster depending on how badly they're losing.
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Nate K
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3XXXDDD wrote:
Okay, this will likely come with quite a lot of problems but...

What if the only way you could draw, outside of card effects, was by being damaged? That means no drawing at the start of the turn?


Then you'd need to find ways to ensure that players start with decent hands every game. If they can't really deal damage at the beginning of the game (or if their opponent is really good at preventing early damage) then the game stagnants.
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