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Subject: What is the most complicated Euro and/or the Euro with the most depth? rss

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Randall Shaw
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Using this to supplement a discussion on Consim in particular and to educate myself in general.
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Alfred Wallace
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You'll probably get more answers if you ask in general gaming rather than wargames...
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Wulf Corbett
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Anything by Sierra Madre Games...
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Craig Benn
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Twilight Struggle.
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Ocean Druen
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By Euro you mean wargames set in Europe right?
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Ryan Powers
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Wulf Corbett wrote:
Anything by Sierra Madre Games...


I don't even know how to categorize most of those. Love them though.
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Andy Beaton
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Die Macher is pretty impressive, or the 18XX rail games.
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Bill Eldard
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aiabx wrote:
Die Macher is pretty impressive, or the 18XX rail games.


I was thinking the same thing. I've only played Die Macher once, but it's definitely the most complicated Euro I've played -- and I'll certainly play it again.

After that, I'd say the 18xx games, of which I've played 1870.

Revolution: The Dutch Revolt 1568-1648 is rather complex, too, IMHO. We took in excess of 6 hours to complete the only game I've been involved in, and I don't think I had a clue as to what I was doing for half the game. It may not classify as a Euro.

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Bill Eldard
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keethrax wrote:
Wulf Corbett wrote:
Anything by Sierra Madre Games...


I don't even know how to categorize most of those. Love them though.


I'm only familiar with Lords of the Sierra Madre, which I would categorize somewhere between a Martin Wallace historically-themed game and a simulation/wargame.
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Benjami Pitarch
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18XX
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Jeff K
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The heaviest and deepest euro I have played is definitely Tigris & Euphrates. And I wrote a little article detailing the aspects of the game that might appeal to wargamer types.

EDIT: I should add, especially with euros, that rules complexity does not always coincide with depth of play.
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Ocean Druen
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Wulf Corbett wrote:
Anything by Sierra Madre Games...


High Frontier although I do not know what constitutes a "Euro", it is not a wargame and is not ameritrash. It is complicated (need to know math!!) and has a great deal of depth.

As a bonus I do not think that there is another comparable game with the same theme.
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Wendell
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Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization is reasonably complicated and has depth.

Games like High Frontier and American Megafauna even more so but may not be considered Euros.
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Gabriel Gendron
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Dominant Species has lots of depth.
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john f stup
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LeHavre and Imperial. both have no dice or random cards with very little luck and a lot depends on interplay of the opponents. i don't know about some of the others that are considered complicated, so i can't fairly comment on them but these are very good to excellent games and have interesting and sometimes complicated decisions to make. these 2 games i would be as willing to play as much as some of my favorite wargames although i also like simpler euros.
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Jim F
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usrlocal wrote:
Isn't anything that isn't a wargame a 'Euro'? kiss


The classification of indifference says it is
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Ocean Druen
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gab4tac wrote:
Dominant Species has lots of depth.


+1, but the game is not very complicated...
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Steven Mitchell
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Xookliba wrote:
EDIT: I should add, especially with euros, that rules complexity does not always coincide with depth of play.


A very good distinction to make. Are you looking for the most complex ruleset or the deepest strategy? The one won't necessarily correspond to another.

Depending on one's categories, The Republic of Rome might be considered a Euro, in which case it's probably both the most complex and the deepest.

But since it's dubious that RoR is a Euro, I'd instead say that Dominant Species and Urban Sprawl are very deep without having rules that are all that complex. In each case, you definitely have to play a long game. And both seem to have the greatest tension between 'what you want to do' and 'resources you have to do it'.

(And no, I'm not saying that just because their GMT. Having played many, many Euros in my time, I can honestly say that they outrank most of the more standard Euro titles.)
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Robert Wesley
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Re: What is the most complicated "Weuro" and/or the "Weuro" with the most depth?
'moi' shall have to 'submit' RISK as such, due to its many 'permutations' available! goo
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Steve Cox
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Case Blue ?
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Judd Vance
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Europe Engulfed

Seriously? A Few Acres of Snow (Even the hammer isn't easy to figure out).
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Pone McPoneface
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My nomination would be Mecanisburgo.
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Alec Clair
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In addition the above recommandations, I would suggest some Splotter games:
Roads & Boats
Antiquity
Indonesia

you may also be interested by Euro treatment of a conflict game:
Wallenstein (second edition) or Shogun
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Warren Bruhn
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Probably Eclipse, though I haven't played it myself.

The BGG glossary defines Euro as a German game:

"german game

n. A game from Germany. Such games typically have relatively simple rules, short playing times, fairly high levels of abstraction and player interaction, and attractive physical components. Games not from Germany that otherwise meet the criteria are occasionally included in this group, but are more frequently described as ‘German-like’ (See also family game)"

By that definition, perhaps the wargame Friedrich might also qualify as a German game with some depth to it.
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Jim Ransom
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Never played a "Euro." What's that like...?
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