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Subject: How much posting is enough? rss

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Ron
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If an old bookmark brought you to this thread and you are looking for "Hi, I want to play Werewolf online." #20, please click on this link.

If, however, you are looking for the topic, as shown in the Subject line, please just scroll down six or seven posts.

Please geekmail me if you have questions.

Thank you.
 
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Michael Mesich
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Re: "Hi, I want to play werewolf online." #20 - Perfect 11 - Basic Werewolf for the Rookie and the Veteran - Placeholder
linguistfromhell wrote:

Draw - If everyone dies, then I win and all players end in a draw. (Actually impossible in this roleset ...)


Final three with Villager, Hunter, Brutal Wolf. Brutal Wolf is lynched and retaliates against the Hunter who has targeted the Villager?
 
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Ron
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Re: "Hi, I want to play werewolf online." #20 - Perfect 11 - Basic Werewolf for the Rookie and the Veteran - Placeholder
mmesich wrote:
linguistfromhell wrote:

Draw - If everyone dies, then I win and all players end in a draw. (Actually impossible in this roleset ...)


Final three with Villager, Hunter, Brutal Wolf. Brutal Wolf is lynched and retaliates against the Hunter who has targeted the Villager?


I assume you're asking if this is how it gets down to zero players ..?

Yes, that is one way. The other is if you swap the hunter / wolf. Hunter is lynched/nk'd, who has targeted the brutal wolf, who has targeted the villager.

But it can't happen in this ruleset because the first wolf killed is always the brutal wolf. It used to be a concern back in Hello #1 - Hello ... #8 or something? But by making that "first wolf is brutal" rule, I remove that possibility.
 
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Re: "Hi, I want to play werewolf online." #20 - Perfect 11 - Basic Werewolf for the Rookie and the Veteran - Placeholder
Player List According to Cassandra:
Carrillo
Laladien
LightRider
miraria
Nightshade935
redshark92
SaiSaysPlayGo
starsaver
Taquelli
wizcreations
ZenMonkey11

11 players are signed up.

To sign up for this game go to
http://www.thecassandraproject.org/jeremy/werewolf/game/8434...
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Frank F
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Re: "Hi, I want to play werewolf online." #20 - Perfect 11 - Basic Werewolf for the Rookie and the Veteran - In Signup!
Hopefully I don't help my team lose this time!

I just signed up on Cassandra.
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Ron
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Re: "Hi, I want to play werewolf online." #20 - Perfect 11 - Basic Werewolf for the Rookie and the Veteran - In Signup!
FYI - If this doesn't fill by Friday, I'm bumping the time to the right one hour.
 
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Re: "Hi, I want to play werewolf online." #20 - Perfect 11 - Basic Werewolf for the Rookie and the Veteran - In Signup!
linguistfromhell wrote:
FYI - If this doesn't fill by Friday, I'm bumping the time to the right one hour.


I'd love that =)
 
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Ron
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Re: "Hi, I want to play werewolf online." #20 - Perfect 11 - Basic Werewolf for the Rookie and the Veteran - In Signup!
Nightshade935 wrote:
linguistfromhell wrote:
FYI - If this doesn't fill by Friday, I'm bumping the time to the right one hour.


I'd love that =)


My "Hi" games have dawn at 4, 5, 6, 7, or 8. Not earlier, because I can't get to Cassy during work hours, and not later, because I'm old and waking up at 5:30 in the morning is already a pain in the rear.

So I guess if I were you, I'd hope it fills after Friday, but before next Friday.
 
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Re: "Hi, I want to play werewolf online." #20 - Perfect 11 - Basic Werewolf for the Rookie and the Veteran - In Signup!
linguistfromhell wrote:
FYI - If this doesn't fill by Friday, I'm bumping the time to the right one hour.


Hi, I'm ok with the lynch time (most days).

But what's your stance on changing the replacement rules?

For example: Players must post at least 1 game related post (or 2) per day in thread, or risk being replaced. Exceptions will be made if they let you know in advance that can't be there. And that players must confirm in modchat or in thread they still want to play at least 6 hours before the first lynch, or risk being replaced?
With such a small game, I think not having these clauses can really affect the game, and I don't believe your current replacement rules are the norm. Someone could technically go the entire game without ever posting and just say hi in modchat once a day.
Of course it's up to you, and I'll respect your decision either way, but I thought doesn't hurt to try bringing it up and seeing if you'll consider adjusting it at all. (Or maybe there's reasons not to change it that I'm not aware of).

 
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Tim Rudisill
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Re: "Hi, I want to play werewolf online." #20 - Perfect 11 - Basic Werewolf for the Rookie and the Veteran - In Signup!
Why is this game ranked Medium complexity and not low or noob?
 
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Ron
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Re: "Hi, I want to play werewolf online." #20 - Perfect 11 - Basic Werewolf for the Rookie and the Veteran - In Signup!
hibou wrote:
But what's your stance on changing the replacement rules?

For example: Players must post at least 1 game related post (or 2) per day in thread, or risk being replaced. Exceptions will be made if they let you know in advance that can't be there. And that players must confirm in modchat or in thread they still want to play at least 6 hours before the first lynch, or risk being replaced?
With such a small game, I think not having these clauses can really affect the game, and I don't believe your current replacement rules are the norm. Someone could technically go the entire game without ever posting and just say hi in modchat once a day.
Of course it's up to you, and I'll respect your decision either way, but I thought doesn't hurt to try bringing it up and seeing if you'll consider adjusting it at all. (Or maybe there's reasons not to change it that I'm not aware of).


(Sorry I didn't reply earlier - I saw your questions when I was half-asleep and forgot to get back to them.)

So, there are two primary questions here - one regarding replacement rules and one regarding being here for the start.

Regarding replacement, the only difference I can see between forcing someone to post game-related content once per day and requiring someone to show a "proof of life" is that definitions of 'game-related content' will differ. Say you make a post that Player A pings you, regardless of reason. Player B quotes your ping and says "I disagree." Is that enough game-related content from Player B to meet your requirement? From my point of view, that is just enough game-related content to be obnoxious, but it DOES meet the rule.

Allowing folks to stay completely UTR by geekmailing or posting in modchat gives players the opportunity to be just as "involved" and yet be less openly obnoxious. TBH, it's only come up once or twice in the several months I've been using it.

As far as "normal replacement rules", I hadn't really noticed any others when I instituted the Proof of Life rule. This one works, and no one has criticized the rule (to me / where I can see) because it's very cut and dry, whereas "game related content" allows for an opinion.

Regarding your other question - about the advance confirmation - I don't see it is a critical requirement for the low-impact, high-repetition games, such as the standard P11s. I do agree that for experimental games like your salad game or the deckbuilding games that I've started, confirmation prior to the game start would be a boon. Ditto for any of the really large games. In fact, I was already considering adding something similar to this to my larger games.

tcrudisi wrote:
Why is this game ranked Medium complexity and not low or noob?


Because either Fedora didn't listen when he set up the game or I forgot to tell him. I don't remember. Shrug. Give me the blame, if you want to assign any.
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Re: "Hi, I want to play werewolf online." #20 - Perfect 11 - Basic Werewolf for the Rookie and the Veteran - In Signup!
Can I still fix it??
 
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George Buss
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Re: "Hi, I want to play werewolf online." #20 - Perfect 11 - Basic Werewolf for the Rookie and the Veteran - In Signup!
Wait... it's on low already... Guess you did it.
 
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Ron
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Re: "Hi, I want to play werewolf online." #20 - Perfect 11 - Basic Werewolf for the Rookie and the Veteran - In Signup!
ThatFedoraGuy wrote:
Wait... it's on low already... Guess you did it.


Too slow.

That being said, see if you can figure out how to change it to something else, then change it back. Shrug.
 
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Re: "Hi, I want to play werewolf online." #20 - Perfect 11 - Basic Werewolf for the Rookie and the Veteran - In Signup!
This will be my first BGG werewolf game. I just signed up on Cassandra!
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Ron
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Re: "Hi, I want to play werewolf online." #20 - Perfect 11 - Basic Werewolf for the Rookie and the Veteran - In Signup!
Have you played Werewolf on other forums or face-to-face?
 
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Re: "Hi, I want to play werewolf online." #20 - Perfect 11 - Basic Werewolf for the Rookie and the Veteran - In Signup!
I have played many times face-to-face so I am familiar with how the game works.
 
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Re: "Hi, I want to play werewolf online." #20 - Perfect 11 - Basic Werewolf for the Rookie and the Veteran - In Signup!
Awesome - glad to have you!
 
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Re: "Hi, I want to play werewolf online." #20 - Perfect 11 - Basic Werewolf for the Rookie and the Veteran - In Signup!
linguistfromhell wrote:


So, there are two primary questions here - one regarding replacement rules and one regarding being here for the start.

Regarding replacement, the only difference I can see between forcing someone to post game-related content once per day and requiring someone to show a "proof of life" is that definitions of 'game-related content' will differ. Say you make a post that Player A pings you, regardless of reason. Player B quotes your ping and says "I disagree." Is that enough game-related content from Player B to meet your requirement? From my point of view, that is just enough game-related content to be obnoxious, but it DOES meet the rule.

Allowing folks to stay completely UTR by geekmailing or posting in modchat gives players the opportunity to be just as "involved" and yet be less openly obnoxious. TBH, it's only come up once or twice in the several months I've been using it.

As far as "normal replacement rules", I hadn't really noticed any others when I instituted the Proof of Life rule. This one works, and no one has criticized the rule (to me / where I can see) because it's very cut and dry, whereas "game related content" allows for an opinion.

Regarding your other question - about the advance confirmation - I don't see it is a critical requirement for the low-impact, high-repetition games, such as the standard P11s. I do agree that for experimental games like your salad game or the deckbuilding games that I've started, confirmation prior to the game start would be a boon. Ditto for any of the really large games. In fact, I was already considering adding something similar to this to my larger games.


Thanks for your response.

I do like the proof of life requirement but would just expand on it to include proof of playing or something. I think in the general ww guidelines it says you're expected to post at least once or twice a day if playing. (though no it doesn't say anything about the content of those posts, so leaving out the content part is fine)

Ok so forget the opinion aspect of it. What if proof of life, just meant posting in thread once a day and leave out game related content? I just don't think it's fair to people who want to play to have a silent player. Even if it's a low complexity repetitive game, I still take it seriously when I play.

I noticed at least 2 games of yours lately where people asked if someone could be replaced, and you had said no, because you were forced to follow the original post, but understood their frustration. But, when people asked if someone could be replaced in other games, the mod was able to accommodate that, or did so even before asked, given he was not restricted by the original post.

What is does, is it gives you more discretion. If someone's clearly not playing to play- you have the right to remove them. If someone hasn't checked into BGG in 3 weeks, you don't have to wait until after first lynch to replace them.
I never meant you had to use my exact words- that was just an example. You could say any posts in thread counts or something too. The point was just something to give you more leeway. I think it's more fair and fun to players to play with others actually playing- and this could help with that.
Maybe it's still not the best solution, but it's all I got. (Also, didn't mean to sabotage your game with this, sorry, I can move this to the village square instead).
 
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Ron
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Re: "Hi, I want to play werewolf online." #20 - Perfect 11 - Basic Werewolf for the Rookie and the Veteran - In Signup!
And here, I think, is the crux of your argument. (Please feel free to say something if I am wrong.)

hibou wrote:
I just don't think it's fair to people who want to play to have a silent player. Even if it's a low complexity repetitive game, I still take it seriously when I play.


I see where you are coming from, and I certainly will agree that you are one of the players that can make this argument. When you are on your 'A game', your posts come furiously quick and they are full of content. But other players are not like you.

Say we are playing basketball and I tell you that no one can shoot before they dribble 5 times. If I'm really good at basketball, this is nothing to me - just a minor hurdle that I will overcome. But if you're so-so at basketball, it's just one more headache to deal with.

Ditto for other things. Say we're at a pool hall. I may be a highly competitive, uber-focused player and as soon as it's my turn, I'll walk right to the table and I'll make my shot. If I'm on the other end of that spectrum, I'll be having a beer and making jokes with folks and at some point, I'll go "Shit!", run up to the table, look quickly, then make my play.

By having a rule that requires "X" amount of game content, you are forcing a certain style of play. You are really good at that style of play and in one breath, I can probably name another dozen players who are similar. Other players are not like that. Even disregarding that UTR is a style of play; some players don't take the game seriously, some don't like to post a lot, some don't get on the internet often, etc. The Proof of Life rules requires that you are engaged with the game at the level you want to be, but that you are engaged. Post if you want, tell me if you're still playing but don't want to post, or whatever.

If I had to focus down on a single reason for these "Hi" games, I would like to think they're a good gateway for new players trying to see how things are done in BGG WW. But beyond that, this type of game forces even experienced players to think outside the box. The seer is not always going to act seer-like. The wolf isn't always going to act wolf-like. By requiring an amount or type of play, we start to chip away at that "this isn't a stereotypical game" and we start to narrow it down so much that the games will eventually feel like every other game.

I would like to think that there are a few players that consistently jump into these games specifically for that, but maybe I'm delusional. Shrug.

Either way, it sounds like you would enjoy a PFYL game. Dake used to run those all the time; I wonder why he quit. Hrm. Note to self: Find out if Dake is running another soon, or if I should. Sounds like it's time.
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Re: "Hi, I want to play werewolf online." #20 - Perfect 11 - Basic Werewolf for the Rookie and the Veteran - In Signup!
Wow lots of analysis. Of course each moderator is free to run their game any way they want but I do think that hibou has a point. I've been on both sides of this situation in the last 2 hi games. Once I was absent for almost 2 days, once I was asking for a replacement of an absent player. Thing is, I was really surprised when I came back and saw that I hadn't been replaced yet.

I don't think that being absent for 2 days IS a playstyle, at least not an acceptable one. Staying utr or even being here and not posting is one thing. I've done it myself lots of times but for hours, not days. Not posting for such extended periods of time, especially when the game is about to go one way or the other, is the same as killing the game.

P.S. Size matters. If we were talking about a large 21er game that has just begun, great. But p11 is a very small game. Allowing a player to not post for say 48 hours doesn't make sense to me and the best example was hi 18 that ended in 2 days.. I signed up, posted some random stuff..and won. Remember?
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Re: "Hi, I want to play werewolf online." #20 - Perfect 11 - Basic Werewolf for the Rookie and the Veteran - In Signup!
Of course. I'm not THAT senile.

People are always free to ask for a replacement. But I don't force it on anyone that is engaged. So what if you're only partially engaged? Maybe that's all Real Life will allow. Maybe Werewolf just isn't the next best thing to you, and you play it the way other people look at FailBlog.

I am not going to force anyone to play a certain way in the Hi games. But if you sign up, you have to show me that you're at least sitting at the table.
 
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Re: "Hi, I want to play werewolf online." #20 - Perfect 11 - Basic Werewolf for the Rookie and the Veteran - In Signup!
linguistfromhell wrote:
Of course. I'm not THAT senile.

People are always free to ask for a replacement. But I don't force it on anyone that is engaged. So what if you're only partially engaged? Maybe that's all Real Life will allow. Maybe Werewolf just isn't the next best thing to you, and you play it the way other people look at FailBlog.

I am not going to force anyone to play a certain way in the Hi games. But if you sign up, you have to show me that you're at least sitting at the table.


If a player is only partially engaged, they should avoid small games. It's like saying I will sign up for a fast fiver at 7 pm but may be here at 8.. not good. And if they show you they are sitting at the table, then maybe they should post as well, if they are sitting at the table only once a day that is. Just my opinion
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Re: "Hi, I want to play werewolf online." #20 - Perfect 11 - Basic Werewolf for the Rookie and the Veteran - In Signup!
We're hashing over terminology again. This paragraph, quoted from earlier, sums up the main reason why I won't ever force a minimum amount of content in an "introductory-style" game - one player's style may not have anything to do with another's, and I am not going to push someone out of their comfort zone in order to meet a relatively arbitrary rule. I want players that are interested in playing. End of sentence / full stop. Not "players that are interested in posting frequently." Or whatever.

(Edit in to say: Note that players that are interested in posting frequently are awesome and encouraged to join ...)

linguistfromhell wrote:
By having a rule that requires "X" amount of game content, you are forcing a certain style of play. Even disregarding that UTR is a style of play; some players don't take the game seriously, some don't like to post a lot, some don't get on the internet often, etc. The Proof of Life rules require that you are engaged with the game at the level you want to be, but that you are engaged. Post if you want, tell me if you're still playing but don't want to post, or whatever.


The standard argument is that "a quiet village is a dead village". That's a good rule of thumb. If you think that someone is posting just enough to meet minimums, there is a player action that can be taken to remedy that. Who knows? Maybe there's an in-game reason they're so quiet. My replacing a 'good role' because he's quiet does a disservice to someone who's barely posting as a wolf because he's trying to be UTR.
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Re: "Hi, I want to play werewolf online." #20 - Perfect 11 - Basic Werewolf for the Rookie and the Veteran - In Signup!
You've obviously put a lot of thought into the rules you created, and I respect that.

I guess you're using a slippery slope argument when you say "x" number of posts are required per day.
I wasn't saying "x" number, I was saying a minimum of 1. I figure it's like playing scrabble with 1 other person, and that person deciding to just miss every turn. Technically they're allowed... but.

Here's a quote from Snack's Werewolf guidelines, and I guess where I got the number 1 from :
"Participation is key. If you are not able to check into a game that you are signed up for then you might want to reconsider joining it. A good rule of thumb is that you should at least be able to post once each day during a game. But more participation makes for a better game. Remember that moderators and players put time and effort into their games and a lack of participation affects everyone involved."

I don't know what PFYL stands for (I really can't figure out the acronym- People For Yelling Lots?), but I'm assuming it's something with talking and I'd like it.

I'm not by any means insinuating people have to change their playstyle, just that if they're not going to post once a day and don't let you know in advance, then I don't consider that playing. They can be UTR and still post once a day. Posting 1 time per day is not considered frequent. That's making a large leap to assume that.

Anyway, I will drop this, because I do understand what your saying about new players needing to feel more comfortable. And if they confirm with you in mod chat that they do want to keep playing, but can't post for whatever reason, sure fine, I can accept that. But if they totally dissapear, having the discretion to not wait 24 hours before replacing them could be nice. They can always catch the next game if they do come back.
 
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