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Combat Commander: Europe» Forums » Rules

Subject: Spray Fire and Attack Roll/Value rss

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Robert Olesen
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After some research on this forum I have come to the conclusion that when using Spray Fire there is only one Attack Value, applied to both hexes.

I can come up with a number of things that could justify using the same attack roll, but having different attack values for the two target hexes:
Different Hindrances from the firing hex(es) to the target hex(es)
Crossfire (one target cvould be moving, the other stationary)
Concealment (with different Cover in the two targets).

It makes a lot of sense to me to differentiate the Attack Value (using only one Attack Roll) in such cases, but the info I find here suggests otherwise.
So, to be sure ...

1) Is it correct that there is only one Attack Value in spray fire for both hexes?
(Defender chooses concealment cover if different, Crossfire applies if one target unit is moving, largest hindrance applies)

2) If so, what is the justification for this?

3) Actually, you could have a similar situation in an ordinary fire situation against a single hex, if firing at a moving unit that moves into a hex with another unit that is not moving, and the firing player plays crossfire. Would the stationary unit in that hex also be affected by the crossfire modifier?
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Chick Lewis
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1) Is it correct that there is only one Attack Value in spray fire for both hexes?
(Defender chooses concealment cover if different, Crossfire applies if one target unit is moving, largest hindrance applies)

Yes, I believe you are correct.

2) If so, what is the justification for this?

Keeping it simple is very likely to be the justification. CC has never claimed to be a SIMULATION of WWII infantry tactics.
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Jason Albert
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Robert Olesen wrote:
3) Actually, you could have a similar situation in an ordinary fire situation against a single hex, if firing at a moving unit that moves into a hex with another unit that is not moving, and the firing player plays crossfire. Would the stationary unit in that hex also be affected by the crossfire modifier?


Yes.
 
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Jason Albert
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Robert Olesen wrote:
After some research on this forum . . .


This forum is truly outstanding, but with CC, always check the rules first. All of your questions related to Spray Fire are answered directly in A40.

Robert Olesen wrote:
I can come up with a number of things that could justify using the same attack roll, but having different attack values for the two target hexes


No justifications needed. A40 is explicit. "The Fire attack will affect both targeted hexes simultaneously. Only one Fire Attack Roll is made, though all units in both hexes must make Fire Defense Rolls based on that single Attack Total."
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Chick Lewis
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Robert, if the lack of historical justification 'bugs' you too much, Combat Commander is extremely easy to modify to personal taste using 'house rules'.

Just gotta remember to warn your opponents of the house rules, and NOT to use them in tournaments.
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Robert Olesen
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OK, I guess the answer is clear. Thanks.

Jason, you are correct that it can be found in the rules - but you have to piece the complete picture together from details here and there. The basic fact that there is not just one attack roll, but also just one attack total, when using spray fire (and in other cases) could have been written explicitly. The devil is in the details when card combinations come into play.

Chick L, I know that I can use house rules (and when/how to do it), but my current opponent doesn't like them in general (his reasoning is that the game is tested and balanced as it is if I understand him correctly). He does have a point.
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Cindy Nowak
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Robert Olesen wrote:

Jason, you are correct that it can be found in the rules - but you have to piece the complete picture together from details here and there. The basic fact that there is not just one attack roll, but also just one attack total, when using spray fire (and in other cases) could have been written explicitly. The devil is in the details when card combinations come into play.


Actually, with Combat Commander there is nothing to piece together from here and there. Nothing on the card for that action indicates there would be a change to the attack roll rule.

If you follow the rule in that all important red box at the beginning, you will be fine:
Quote:

IMPORTANT: In Combat Commander, the motto “a rule means exactly what it says” should be the order of the day. In other words: “Do not infer or imagine more to a rule than is stated in it.
When in doubt, interpret strictly”


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Jason Albert
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Robert Olesen wrote:
The basic fact that there is not just one attack roll, but also just one attack total, when using spray fire (and in other cases) could have been written explicitly.


Fair enough. We can just agree to disagree on this one. Because I'm not sure how you could be any more explicit than the rule as written. (Bolding mine.)

"Only one Fire Attack Roll is made, though all units in both hexes must make Fire Defense Rolls based on that single Attack Total."

Robert Olesen wrote:
The devil is in the details when card combinations come into play.


Oh, most definitely. But once you know what a Fire Attack and Fire Defense roll is, the method a Concealment or Crossfire action modify those rolls is explicit. Even if said Fire Attack is modified by a Spray Fire action.

Also: What Cindy said.
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Spacegras
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ok, sorry to resurrect an old thread, but this had the closest topic.
Spray fire action being played to modify an attack roll.

LoS to hex A goes through field, but LoS to hex B is clear.
attack roll is made with a -1 to the roll.

target hex A is behind clear, no cover, hex B is behind a hedge so cover of 1.

I make spray fire roll as a single roll at -1 but then each target hex makes its own defensive roll

option 1: A with no cover and B with cover of 1

Option 2: both get cover of 1

I think it is done with option 1, and this is how I have been playing it, but then some of the wording in the Spray fire event throws me off, mainly the blue boxes.

thanks

 
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Simone dalla Chiesa
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ca_squires wrote:
I make spray fire roll as a single roll at -1 but then each target hex makes its own defensive roll


You answered yourself: only one Attack roll, with the worst possible hindrance, and two separate Defense rolls, each stack using its specific cover.
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Aaron Bredon
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Professorelm wrote:
ca_squires wrote:
I make spray fire roll as a single roll at -1 but then each target hex makes its own defensive roll


You answered yourself: only one Attack roll, with the worst possible hindrance, and two separate Defense rolls, each stack using its specific cover.


Actually, it is one defense roll per unit - you roll separately for each squad, team or leader, each with cover based on what hex it is in.
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Spacegras
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Thanks guys for the quick replies.

I try to follow the "don't read anything into the rules" rule, but sometimes you can't help it.

 
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Simone dalla Chiesa
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abredon wrote:
Professorelm wrote:
ca_squires wrote:
I make spray fire roll as a single roll at -1 but then each target hex makes its own defensive roll


You answered yourself: only one Attack roll, with the worst possible hindrance, and two separate Defense rolls, each stack using its specific cover.


Actually, it is one defense roll per unit - you roll separately for each squad, team or leader, each with cover based on what hex it is in.


yes, two series of Defense rolls, etc.
 
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