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Subject: Winning South Carolina rss

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Timothy Goddard
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This question came up in the sessions forum--can a Lower South regional poll trigger the end of the game if the Republicans control South Carolina? Or is that a final polling only thing?

The rulebook isn't specific here--the two sentences before, discussing how the other parties can win the state, they clearly specify "Regional or Final Polling," but for Lincoln it just says "the Republicans MAY win..." without specifying one or both.

Thematically, I would think the game-ending would only come into play if Lincoln actually won the election, but the rules as written, unless I'm missing something somewhere, could go either way.
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Timothy Goddard
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Any chance of an answer on this? Am I missing something obvious?
 
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wendigo song
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Per Rule 7.6 South Carolina can never be locked so that state would never be subject to a regional poll locking it. State Control isn't one of the conditions that would cause everyone to lost the game.
 
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john morrison
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Wendigo, that doesn't follow. I agree that SC can't be locked - the rules are very explicit on that - but there is nothing to say that it can't be polled and won. Certainly for momentum purposes at least one would want to win the state in a regional poll.
 
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wendigo song
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John, if you and I are agreeing that the state can't be locked, then we are also agreeing that it can't be polled and won by a regional poll. Rule 7.4 covers Regional Polling and states the procedure to take. Rule 7.5 covers State Control and indicates that there are special polling rules for South Carolina and leads the reader to Rule 9.6. Although a regional poll can be used to get control of the state if you meet South Carolina's special rules, all that allows you to do is hold South Carolina's card till the Regional Polling card is played again or till final polling.

Now before examining Rule 9.6 it is important to note that all the Rule 9 rules are for the General Election, Final Polling, and Special Cases for both. Rule 9.0 make a point to say that Regional Polling cards are removed from the deck for the final turn and set aside. So although Rule 9.6 does mention winning "South Carolina...during Regional or Final polling," regional polling here refers to state control (which is why Rule 7.5 leads you here) and Final polling refers to actually winning the state so as to trigger the "everybody loses" scenario if the Republicans win the state per the special polling rules.

I think that we are talking about 2 different things. While you are correct that you can gain state control over South Carolina (and the card) through a regional poll at any time, you cannot lock the state. I think we are both attaching different meanings to the word "win" where I am defining it as winning the state for the purposes of electoral votes where you are defining it as winning the card for state control.
 
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Timothy Goddard
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harlemsushi wrote:
I think we are both attaching different meanings to the word "win" where I am defining it as winning the state for the purposes of electoral votes where you are defining it as winning the card for state control.


Which leads me back to my original question. I think I agree with you, Wendigo, about the correct interpretation, but I'd like to hear an official ruling.
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john morrison
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harlemsushi wrote:
John, if you and I are agreeing that the state can't be locked, then we are also agreeing that it can't be polled and won by a regional poll.


Not so.

harlemsushi wrote:
Rule 7.4 covers Regional Polling and states the procedure to take.


The relevant line here is: "states are polled one at a time by determining who controls a given state"

harlemsushi wrote:
Rule 7.5 covers State Control and indicates that there are special polling rules for South Carolina and leads the reader to Rule 9.6


Rule 7.5 also says "the party WINS this round of state polls and then receives the appropriate state card".

harlemsushi wrote:
Although a regional poll can be used to get control of the state if you meet South Carolina's special rules, all that allows you to do is hold South Carolina's card till the Regional Polling card is played again or till final polling.


That was entirely my point - that a party can win SC and hold the card.

harlemsushi wrote:
Now before examining Rule 9.6 it is important to note that all the Rule 9 rules are for the General Election, Final Polling, and Special Cases for both.


I wouldn't interpret Rule 9.0 as whole (nor its subsections) as referring to Final Polling exclusively as you seem to imply above - as Rule 9.3 on State Strongholds specifically refers to both party and regional and final polling.

harlemsushi wrote:
So although Rule 9.6 does mention winning "South Carolina...during Regional or Final polling," regional polling here refers to state control (which is why Rule 7.5 leads you here)


Rule 9.3 also says a party with a stronghold WINS during both regional and final polling.

harlemsushi wrote:
and Final polling refers to actually winning the state so as to trigger the "everybody loses" scenario if the Republicans win the state per the special polling rules.


I think from the example in Rule 9.3 that you are making an artifical distinction here between "control" and "winning" in regards to polling results.

harlemsushi wrote:
I think that we are talking about 2 different things. While you are correct that you can gain state control over South Carolina (and the card) through a regional poll at any time, you cannot lock the state. I think we are both attaching different meanings to the word "win" where I am defining it as winning the state for the purposes of electoral votes where you are defining it as winning the card for state control.


No, you are talking about two separate things. I'm not, since as I stated above, I see no such distinction between "control" and "winning".
I would also point in support of my interpretation to the specific example given in Rule 9.6 on South Carolina which says in various lines: The SD may win...the CU and the ND may win...the "Republicans MAY win" - I see no distinction here between regional and final polling for the SD, CU and ND - why would there be one for the Republicans?

As I see it, the Republicans can WIN a regional poll in SC, and thus can also could also end the game.

EDITED to correct quote from Rule 9.3
 
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wendigo song
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jumpingjohnflash wrote:
No, you are talking about two separate things.


Let me start responding to you here because it seems like we are talking about two seperate things. Firstly, this is the original question that was asked:

timgoddard wrote:
"...[C]an a Lower South regional poll trigger the end of the game if the Republicans control South Carolina? Or is that a final polling only thing?"


The question refers to ending the game which is why I answered that:

harlemsushi wrote:
Per Rule 7.6 South Carolina can never be locked so that state would never be subject to a regional poll locking it. State Control isn't one of the conditions that would cause everyone to lost the game.


You are the one that responded to that post by not only agreeing with me but then bring up something totally not germane to what was being asked when you brought up momentum and state control. If you didn't understand the question begin asked or were unable to follow the responses in the thread even after the OP stated that he agreed on my unofficial ruling on the way I interpreted the rules then that's fine, but it does in fact mean we are speaking about two seperate things. If you still can't see that then there's not much I can do for you.

jumpingjohnflash wrote:
The relevant line here is: "states are polled one at a time by determining who controls a given state"


No I believe the relevant line is the question that was actully asked in the original post. This response you gave further shows that you did not understand what was being asked:

jumpingjohnflash wrote:
That was entirely my point - that a party can win SC and hold the card.


That's great if that's your point but it has nothing to do with the original post's question.

jumpingjohnflash wrote:
I think from the example in Rule 9.3 that you are making an artifical distinction here between "control" and "winning" in regards to polling results.


No, I just read the OP's question and answered it. If you would have done the same then you would realize that you are arguing a point that was neither asked or contested because you either misunderstood the question or did not comprehend what you were reading.

jumpingjohnflash wrote:
Rule 9.3 also says a party with a stronghold WINS during both party and regional polling.


I'm sorry, I read the rulebook and I also read Rule 9.3 and neither had any reference to any mechanic called "party polling." Is this another thing you made up just like the imaginary question you felt my response did not follow?

jumpingjohnflash wrote:
I see no such distinction between "control" and "winning".


Really? I ask because the distinction is clear as day to me. State Control during a regional poll is achieved (per Rule 7.5) when a party "possesses enough PCFs in a region to equal or exceed the local PCR" and "the party achieve[s] a plurality." Winning (per Rule 9.0) refers to actually winning the state on election day.

jumpingjohnflash wrote:
I would also point in support of my interpretation to the specific example given in Rule 9.6 on South Carolina which says in various lines: The SD may win...the CU and the ND may win...the "Republicans MAY win" - I see no distinction here between regional and final polling for the SD, CU and ND - why would there be one for the Republicans?


The specific example in Rule 9.6 begins with the words "During Final Polling..." The first letter in each word is capitalized in the rulebook to make it harder for someone who is not actully reading the rules and only skimming them to miss it. With respect to the actual verbage in the rulebook I suggest that you read the subsequent sentence after what you attempted to quote. But since you probably won't I'll quote it here for you:

"Remember: South Carolina can never be Locked!"

This line is here so someone doesn't think that a Regional Poll would end the game. While I will state that the sentence which you cited could have been written a tad bit clearer, it in no way is meant to state that achieving state control for South Carolina in Regional Poll would end the game. If you believe that then all it proves to me, is that you either did not read or understand the rules. But based on what you've posted thusfar that conclusion isn't a surprising one.
 
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Tom Russell
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I get what you mean, in that "controlling a state", in game terms, means locking it, and the state can't be locked. But if the OP didn't mean "control" but "win" (and I'm in no way presuming to know if that's the case), it's a little murkier, because winning a state in Regional or Final Polling is different than locking it.

9.6 wrote:
The Republican Party MAY win South Carolina, but they must have BOTH a PCF total of at least 6 AND at least two thirds of the total PCF currently placed in the state.


So, if this happens during a Regional Poll, would it trigger the 1d6 roll? It doesn't explicitly say one way or the other in 9.6, nor in 11.2:

11.2 wrote:
Though it is not possible for any party to achieve victory before Turn 6, it is possible for EVERY player to lose the game either before Turn 6, or at the conclusion of the General Election.

The most common cause for such a situation would be the lack of a clear winner, as defined by section 11.1 of these rules.

The second occurs if secession arises directly from electoral results.


Now, my gut says, "directly from electoral results" means General Election and not Regional Polling, and that "lose before Turn 6" refers only to the special sub-case of 11.4 (Kansas/Nevada). But it had me confused at first too, and it's not because I lack reading comprehension.
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john morrison
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Okay, let me restate my view regarding the OP's question as clearly as possible: I think that the Republicans can WIN South Carolina in a regional poll, and thus possibly end the game - as I stated at the end of my previous long involved reply to wendigo.

This is because unlike wendigo, I see no distinction for polling purposes (and thus gaining a state card) between "winning" and "controlling" a state (or between controlling for a state card and winning electoral votes). I thought my previous post had made clear why I came to this conclusion, my apologies if that was not the case.

In addition, despite Tom Russell's subsequent point about Rule 11.2
and Automatic Defeat before Turn 6 where he notes the line "if secession arises directly from electoral results" - it still seems to me on balance that given the rules surrounding regional polling, that the game could end early due to the Republican winning SC - and in the absence of a ruling from Alex, that is how my gaming group have been playing it.

In any case, I think I can safely say we are all agreed that the very existence of this thread and the subsequent discussion within it means that an official ruling from Alex would be much appreciated :-)
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Tom Russell
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jumpingjohnflash wrote:
In any case, I think I can safely say we are all agreed that the very existence of this thread and the subsequent discussion within it means that an official ruling from Alex would be much appreciated :-)


True dat!

I think he's at GenCon currently. Hopefully he'll check in with this thread when he gets back-- he's been very active w/r/t answering queries otherwise.
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Timothy Goddard
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tomrussell wrote:
jumpingjohnflash wrote:
In any case, I think I can safely say we are all agreed that the very existence of this thread and the subsequent discussion within it means that an official ruling from Alex would be much appreciated :-)


True dat!


Ditto!
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Timothy Goddard
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Still no response from Alex. Any suggestions on the appropriate way to get this question answered?
 
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Steven
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Message him? He may have just missed this.
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Alex Bagosy
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I'm sorry I missed this, guys. My most sincere apologies.

Please consider the following to be the "official" interpretation of the rules.

The final paragraph of section 9.6 should read as follows.

"The Republican Party MAY win South Carolina, but they must have BOTH a PCF total of at least 6 AND at least two thirds of the total PCF currently placed in the state. However, if the Republicans happen to win South Carolina during Final Polling, there could be a rather unforeseen effect. The Republicans roll 1d6."

Why is this the interpretation? Well, originally it had been my intention to do this with either Regional or Final Polling. However, it became apparent during testing (both by myself and by Alex and Patrick Stevens) that certain unscrupulous players might consider forcing an end game if they felt there was no possible chance of winning the election.

To wit: no, the Republicans cannot force an end game by winning South Carolina in a Regional Poll and forcing a possible secession result, nor could any other party attempt to create a Republican victory in the state (via a Regional Poll, for example) in order to create that result. South Carolina will ONLY secede:

- As a result of the events associated with certain cards (ie: Kansas and Nevada)

OR

- As a result of a Republican victory in that state during Final Polling.

-Alex
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Steven
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Again, thank you Alex for clarifying. That makes everything very clear!
 
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Timothy Goddard
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Thanks much! This makes good sense to me.
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