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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » Variants

Subject: Simple but rational LOS rss

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Taylor S
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LOS in the default game has been the subject of much controversy. Of course, the changes were made to speed gameplay, and are brilliant at making LOS easy to calculate. The downside is that LOS is extremely "loose" and essentially makes cover/strategic placement of ranged units very difficult and unintuitive.

My solution is to use the same "corner-to-corner" tracing system, but add a single caveat:

Quote:
LOS lines must cover at least 50% of the target square.


This means that LOS around cover/walls/figures is limited to a pure diagonal and not shallower angles. It is still forgiving because we are not tracing center-to-center, but rather any-corner to any-corner. But the result should be a bit more rational and allow for ranged units to benefit from cover more than they do under the default rules.

I look forward to feedback on this system!

 


*edit: green = yes, cyan = no
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Rich Moore
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How is this different from D1 center to center LOS rule?

And why is the blue "Yes" a "Yes"? Seems like it shouldn't be by this rule.

Just wondering...
 
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Drake Coker
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Your drawing seems nice, but I have no idea what "cover at least 50% of the target square" means.
 
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Ian Toltz
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Olvenskol wrote:
Your drawing seems nice, but I have no idea what "cover at least 50% of the target square" means.


It seems to be a less intuitive way of saying "You must be able to draw a line from a corner of the attacker to the center of the defender"
 
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Taylor S
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Quote:
And why is the blue "Yes" a "Yes"? Seems like it shouldn't be by this rule.


Because it isn't center-to-center. It's corner-to-center.
 
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Taylor S
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Asmor wrote:
Olvenskol wrote:
Your drawing seems nice, but I have no idea what "cover at least 50% of the target square" means.


It seems to be a less intuitive way of saying "You must be able to draw a line from a corner of the attacker to the center of the defender"


Fair enough. I like the term "corner-to-center." Any feedback on the mechanics rather than the name?
 
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Tom H
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None of those lines cover 50% of the target square. Lines don't have area so no duh. Obviously, you must mean a corner can see 50% of the target, which is more complicated than simple point to point tests. But it gets more complicated still: some of the green LOS no single corner can see 50% of the target. It seems this combines "fans of sight" from multiple corners.

Or is this just corner-to-center?


One unusual aspect is it's not reflexive. Red can see orange and purple but they can't see back.

Edited to remove stuff already clarified
 
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Tom H
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Introduces a worse version of the cover cha-cha.

A is behind B.
B is behind C.
C is behind a wall.
You cannot shoot any of them.
They can all shoot you. (worse than the old center to center cha-cha)
 
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Scott Lewis
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Terah wrote:

One unusual aspect is it's not reflexive. Red can see orange and purple but they can't see back.

The non-reflexivity doesn't bother me too much. If I was Red, I could peek out behind the wall to shoot orange and purple, but I could safely duck back behind the wall so they couldn't see me.

I'm not saying I like this mechanic in a game (I'm more indifferent), just that symmetry for LOS doesn't necessarily have to be a factor, especially if "realism" is the goal.
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Justin
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I think the whole point of the new LOS is that you can just eye it, you don't have to get out a ruler when the rules nazi at your table is about to win or lose the quest based on 1 last shot. With what you have there, I think we would have to get out the ruler again. cry
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Taylor S
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Terah wrote:

One unusual aspect is it's not reflexive. Red can see orange and purple but they can't see back.


I see this as the main "feature" of corner-to-center. It lets units shoot around corners without being vulnerable to unrealistic counter-fire. The default "i see you, you see me" corner-to-corner makes obstacles and cover virtually useless.
 
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Daniel O'Connell
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Terah wrote:

One unusual aspect is it's not reflexive. Red can see orange and purple but they can't see back.

The non-reflexivity doesn't bother me too much. If I was Red, I could peek out behind the wall to shoot orange and purple, but I could safely duck back behind the wall so they couldn't see me.

I'm not saying I like this mechanic in a game (I'm more indifferent), just that symmetry for LOS doesn't necessarily have to be a factor, especially if "realism" is the goal.


If realism is the goal then you should be able to shoot Red as he peeks out. Non-reflexive LOS rules then require overwatch rules to prevent cheese. I think the LOS rules need to be reflexive otherwise the balance of some of the quests is going to suffer.
 
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Taylor S
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MrSumOne wrote:
With what you have there, I think we would have to get out the ruler again. cry


That's not true. Valid LOS runs along the pure diagonal from the target square. If the attacker is further away than touching the pure diagonal (and the defender is behind a wall) then they do not have LOS. If the attacker is touching the pure diagonal line, they have LOS. No ruler needed at all.
 
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Taylor S
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eatspider wrote:
Non-reflexive LOS rules then require overwatch rules to prevent cheese. I think the LOS rules need to be reflexive otherwise the balance of some of the quests is going to suffer.


I think the relatively short range rules for D2E would prevent this from being abused, but also let ranged units benefits from walls. But that is a decision for each gaming group to decide.
 
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Mike Paivinen
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Terah wrote:
Introduces a worse version of the cover cha-cha.

A is behind B.
B is behind C.
C is behind a wall.
You cannot shoot any of them.
They can all shoot you. (worse than the old center to center cha-cha)
Granted, I haven't played a large variety of war games, or games with different line-of-sight rules. It seems to me that if you're in this situation, then it means you're standing in some fairly open ground while those attacking you are behind cover. Seems perfectly logical that you should get your a.. kicked.
 
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Igor Pushkar
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I think "balance" is build on fact that if one figure have LOS to other, then it true for reverse LOS but I like it and will try if our group will agree.
 
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Matt
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DrFunkenstein wrote:
Terah wrote:

One unusual aspect is it's not reflexive. Red can see orange and purple but they can't see back.


I see this as the main "feature" of corner-to-center. It lets units shoot around corners without being vulnerable to unrealistic counter-fire. The default "i see you, you see me" corner-to-corner makes obstacles and cover virtually useless.


By necessity if you put yourself in a position to take a shot you can be shot back.

I can shoot you but you cant shoot back is horrible. One of the most basic rules of LOS is the if you can see me I can see you rule. Otherwise it does become a cover dance.
 
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Scott Lewis
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MaximumPain wrote:
DrFunkenstein wrote:
Terah wrote:

One unusual aspect is it's not reflexive. Red can see orange and purple but they can't see back.


I see this as the main "feature" of corner-to-center. It lets units shoot around corners without being vulnerable to unrealistic counter-fire. The default "i see you, you see me" corner-to-corner makes obstacles and cover virtually useless.


By necessity if you put yourself in a position to take a shot you can be shot back.

I can shoot you but you cant shoot back is horrible. One of the most basic rules of LOS is the if you can see me I can see you rule. Otherwise it does become a cover dance.

I'm not sure I agree. If I can see you, sure, you might be able to see SOME of me, but that doesn't mean we're going to be equally easy to hit.

In a game, I don't think it needs to be equal, either, as long as both players have the same basic rules (IE, if heroes can hide behind cover, so can monsters). In 2E, cover is hard enough to come by that I don't think it's a big deal, and playing the "cover dance" game doesn't usually do much to further objectives.
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R N
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Terah wrote:
Introduces a worse version of the cover cha-cha.

A is behind B.
B is behind C.
C is behind a wall.
You cannot shoot any of them.
They can all shoot you. (worse than the old center to center cha-cha)


If C "should" have cover and the others "should not," then your cover system would have to account for cover from a wall or cover from another figure differently.

Otherwise your options are that all of those figures have cover or none of them have cover.
 
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MaximumPain wrote:
By necessity if you put yourself in a position to take a shot you can be shot back.

Unless you are behind an arrow slit, or a murder hole, or (to a lesser degree) behind some rocks.

MaximumPain wrote:
I can shoot you but you cant shoot back is horrible. One of the most basic rules of LOS is the if you can see me I can see you rule. Otherwise it does become a cover dance.

The attackers are not dancing precisely because LOS is asymmetrical, they don't have to move around in order to fire and maintain cover.
 
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