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Subject: Do cards get used much? It's over so fast... rss

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Mark Turner
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Played my first few games of this, really enjoyed it.

But I was left wondering how much use the cards would get...

Assuming I understand Tokyo correctly (that the incumbent gets 2 points on every players' turn, not just their own) I found the game went by too quick for the cards to become much of an issue.

When someone is in Tokyo, you need to hit them fast, or they win too quickly. Coupled with your own need to heal or get victory points, energy seems to be a distant fourth.

By the time people built the requisite energy for one of the useful powers, the game was already pretty much over.

Have players here found that cards become much of a factor?( I was playing a 3 person game)
 
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Benoit Flageol
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The expansion will try to cover this "issue" by allowing you to use one of your 8 monster-specific cards everytime you roll 3 Heart.
 
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Steve Wardell
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MrMT wrote:
Assuming I understand Tokyo correctly (that the incumbent gets 2 points on every players' turn, not just their own) I found the game went by too quick for the cards to become much of an issue.


You only gain 2VP for starting your turn in Tokyo.

MrMT wrote:
Have players here found that cards become much of a factor?( I was playing a 3 person game)


I've seen several people on these forums claiming it's difficult to get enough energy to buy cards, but I've never seen that in my games. I usually buy several cards over the course of a game.
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Shane Larsen
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Shameless self promotion here, but I recommend a variant created by yours truly:

TheDacker's Double Dose of Energy Variant
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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MrMT wrote:
Assuming I understand Tokyo correctly (that the incumbent gets 2 points on every players' turn, not just their own) I found the game went by too quick for the cards to become much of an issue.

There's your problem - you only get 2 points when you're in Tokyo at the start of your own turn (sounds like you suspected that you might have that wrong). Not only are you shortening the game drastically with all the extra points, but I'd think players would all be forced into trying to kill whoever is there, to the point that they'd be re-rolling power dice to get attacks.

Played the right way, the game is still fairly quick, and the cards become very important. (I see no need for variants - the game plays great with the rules as written).
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Shane Larsen
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Khedron wrote:
I've seen several people on these forums claiming it's difficult to get enough energy to buy cards, but I've never seen that in my games. I usually buy several cards over the course of a game.


I'll give you a counter opinion that I think the game (as the standard rules would have you play it) punishes anybody who tries to collect cubes. You have to sacrifice too much in precious victory points, health, or attacks that energy is just not worth it. After only a few games, nobody was keeping energy results in my groups.

Those who did focus on energy cubes, never won because they either died or somebody got the VP win. If they did get a nice card, it was usually so late in the game that it made very little difference anyway.

After playing with the variant I recommend above, I find the base rules rather boring.
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thedacker wrote:
After only a few games, nobody was keeping energy results in my groups.

I think you should play with other groups if you get the opportunity. I don't doubt that it worked that way for you, but groupthink is self-reinforcing. I'm far from convinced that acquiring energy and buying cards is a losing proposition.
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Victor Chan
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I play a 3 player game as well. Usually it ends up with us using around 5-6/66 cards. I think its good because it keeps the game fresh. You cant be aiming for cards and expect to be ahead.
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Shane Larsen
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Sphere wrote:
thedacker wrote:
After only a few games, nobody was keeping energy results in my groups.

I think you should play with other groups if you get the opportunity. I don't doubt that it worked that way for you, but groupthink is self-reinforcing. I'm far from convinced that acquiring energy and buying cards is a losing proposition.


I tried several times to take the energy-cube route. I really wanted it to be a viable path to victory because my favorite part of the game is the cards and all the great combos they (potentially) create when they get into play. But after several attempts to do so, I realized that I would like the game much more if it was easier to get cards into play.

Turns out I was right. I like the game much more when cubes are easier to collect, making cards easier to get into play for everyone. The combos that come into play (every game) make it incredibly more interesting to me. I'll never go back (barring potential changes made by future expansions and/or promos, etc.).

But that's just me and my preferences. I always favor a game that generates high potential for cool combos. That's why I like it more with the change. It sounds like the OP is having the same kinds of frustrations I was having. That's why I felt my variant might be a good idea for him to try.

EDIT: spelling
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Shane Larsen
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aznxturtlez wrote:
I play a 3 player game as well. Usually it ends up with us using around 5-6/66 cards.


This is exactly what frustrated me about the base rules. I want more cards in play than that for sure. Seeing similar cards from game to game is not a problem for me because it's the combination of the cards and order of their appearance that makes each game infinitely varied.
 
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Sphere wrote:
thedacker wrote:
After only a few games, nobody was keeping energy results in my groups.

I think you should play with other groups if you get the opportunity. I don't doubt that it worked that way for you, but groupthink is self-reinforcing. I'm far from convinced that acquiring energy and buying cards is a losing proposition.

I second that. We've had people try to go the dice-only route in our games, only to lose to someone due to their sweet cards.
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thedacker wrote:
aznxturtlez wrote:
I play a 3 player game as well. Usually it ends up with us using around 5-6/66 cards.


This is exactly what frustrated me about the base rules. I want more cards in play than that for sure. Seeing similar cards from game to game is not a problem for me because it's the combination of the cards and order of their appearance that makes each game infinitely varied.

I think an average of 2-3 cards per player sounds about right for where we get with the standard rules. It's not unusual to see one player get 4-5 cards, but I think having everybody get that many on a regular basis would throw the game out of whack just as badly as the 2 VP per turn in Tokyo that the O.P. was using.

With the rules as written, all the various elements are in balance, and you adjust your play each game based on circumstances. I think that produces an interesting mix of strategy and tactics.
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Shane Larsen
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Sphere wrote:
thedacker wrote:
aznxturtlez wrote:
I play a 3 player game as well. Usually it ends up with us using around 5-6/66 cards.


This is exactly what frustrated me about the base rules. I want more cards in play than that for sure. Seeing similar cards from game to game is not a problem for me because it's the combination of the cards and order of their appearance that makes each game infinitely varied.

I think an average of 2-3 cards per player sounds about right... It's not unusual to see one player get 4-5 cards, but I think having everybody get that many on a regular basis would throw the game out of whack just as badly as the 2 VP per turn in Tokyo that the O.P. was using.


I completely agree. The variant doesn't allow players to get have more than 3 KEEP cards at once.

FWIW, in the games I played with the standard rules, nobody was ever able to get 5 cards into play, counting DISCARD cards. And several of us tried, multiple times.

In the end, I think it just comes down to preference. Do you want more cards coming and going than the standard rules allow? I do. So I adjust the rules. And I like the game better.

If you like the amount of cards brought into the game with the standard rules, cool.
 
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thedacker wrote:
I completely agree. The variant doesn't allow players to get have more than 3 KEEP cards at once.

I'm not so sure we agree.

I've seen players with more than 3 KEEP cards in play while using the standard rules. If you double the purchasing power of the players, they'll be able to use those resources to cherry-pick what they want even if you do put limits on how many they can hold simultaneously. I'm more interested in working with what's available. That makes great combos rare, and memorable.

[edit] I see you added this while I was typing:

thedacker wrote:
In the end, I think it just comes down to preference. Do you want more cards coming and going than the standard rules allow? I do. So I adjust the rules. And I like the game better.

If you like the amount of cards brought into the game with the standard rules, cool.

Yup, that's a good summation.
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Ed Bradley
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I find it depends on how which cards are out and how many energy you roll.

IMO only very few cards are worth actively chasing power but there are plenty that are good enough for when you've accumulated a few through change.
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Mark Turner
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Sphere wrote:
MrMT wrote:
Assuming I understand Tokyo correctly (that the incumbent gets 2 points on every players' turn, not just their own) I found the game went by too quick for the cards to become much of an issue.

There's your problem - you only get 2 points when you're in Tokyo at the start of your own turn (sounds like you suspected that you might have that wrong). Not only are you shortening the game drastically with all the extra points, but I'd think players would all be forced into trying to kill whoever is there, to the point that they'd be re-rolling power dice to get attacks.

Played the right way, the game is still fairly quick, and the cards become very important. (I see no need for variants - the game plays great with the rules as written).


Well, this certainly changes things for me. Thanks.

I had assumed that the every turn 2vp rule because a) it seemed to give a reason to stay a little longer after your own turn b) the wording says "when starting THE turn in Tokyo you gain 2vp (not when starting YOUR turn) c) I assumed it balanced out the increasing difficulty of staying in Tokyo with more players.

It did make the game go too fast, though. Only collecting VPs on your own turn certainly makes cards more useful. But it does make staying in tokyo much less advantageous...
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Jordan S.
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I haven't read everyone's comments above but I wanted to throw in my 2 cents.

In my experience, cards can often make the difference between victory and defeat. I've played KoT a couple dozen times now with groups of all sizes and play strategies. On average, players tend to buy 3 to 4 cards each over the course of a game. I've seen games won thanks to the likes of Nova Breath, Carnivore, Alpha Monster, Shrink Ray and others. "Defense" powers, especially those that work in Tokyo, like Rapid Healing, Super Jump, Jets, Wings and Camoflage can give players some serious advantages and are often foolish to pass up. Also factor in the number of games I've seen won by the purchase of a VP card on the final turn and I would dare say the cards play a huge role in how the game plays out.

I've heard the complaints and, for a time, this made me wonder about how impactful the cards really were. More than 25 games has proven to me that the cards are not only one of the most entertaining aspects of the game but also a very significant one. To ignore the cards can often lead to your horrible demise.
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Piata Esquire
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I've played 3 games now and in every single one, cards have been the deciding factor.

Obviously I need to play it a lot more, but right now the best strat seems to be building up a large surplus of energy at the start, cherry picking some cards (especially defensive ones that boost health or reduce damage) and then take Tokyo and hold it until you win.
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Steve Wardell
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Piata wrote:
I've played 3 games now and in every single one, cards have been the deciding factor.

Obviously I need to play it a lot more, but right now the best strat seems to be building up a large surplus of energy at the start, cherry picking some cards (especially defensive ones that boost health or reduce damage) and then take Tokyo and hold it until you win.


That's one strategy, but certainly not the only way to win.
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C A
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Isn't the game over in like 4 turns at most? Its easy to get 4-6 points per turn from rolling then a turn in Tokyo or one good card and you win. I don't get how people are buying so many cards.
 
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lifepawn wrote:
Isn't the game over in like 4 turns at most? Its easy to get 4-6 points per turn from rolling then a turn in Tokyo or one good card and you win. I don't get how people are buying so many cards.


4-6 points from rolling? How many dice do you play with?

Getting VP is dependent on what you're rolling. There are no guarantees. And if too many people are quietly sitting there rolling dice for VP then someone needs to start handing out the hits to keep them honest.
 
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lifepawn wrote:
Isn't the game over in like 4 turns at most? Its easy to get 4-6 points per turn from rolling then a turn in Tokyo or one good card and you win. I don't get how people are buying so many cards.


When you reroll dice, make sure not to score those dice before you reroll.

To score points from rolling, you need to to roll 3 of a kind.
ex. rolling three 2s will score you 2 points.

To get 6 points, you would have to roll six 3s on six dice. It hasn't happened yet in any of the games I've taken part in.
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lifepawn wrote:
Isn't the game over in like 4 turns at most? Its easy to get 4-6 points per turn from rolling then a turn in Tokyo or one good card and you win. I don't get how people are buying so many cards.


I've never had a game end that quickly. There's (almost) always someone in Tokyo dishing out damage and/or claiming points, which means that if the other players want to prevent a run-away leader, they'll need to boot him out (roll claws). Unfortunately, that puts *them* in Tokyo and the process repeats. After a few turns, you've got monsters who are suffering some bad damage, so they'll need to start rolling some hearts to stave off an early defeat. All these hearts and claws take away precious dice from getting your triples. Combine that with the uncertainty of the dice and you tend to get a game that lasts 10 turns or more on average (IME).

I would judge that players going for victory points tend to get 2-3 points/turn on average. This changes (goes down) when their monster is hurt or when they are in Tokyo as noted above. Some turns you just can't seem to score at all (I can't count the number of times that third "3" escaped me even after 2 rerolls of the dice), the result being dice that were totally wasted. This is why cards like Alpha Monster, Nuclear Power Plant or Gas Refinery are really good, because they give you VPs *in addition to* some other desireable effect.

I've won several games thanks to a store of energy that I used to buy Jet Fighters or Amusement Park for example and snag those last few VPs I needed to snatch victory away from someone else. Super Jump, Burrowing and Carnivore have also helped me win games during the pivotal last turns.
 
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