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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: How To Use Greedy rss

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Joshua Muscat
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Our group was wondering if when Tomble uses his 'greedy' skill, if he is able to search a search token within three spaces even if the path is blocked by monsters (meaning that there would be no way for the character to move to the space with the search token using a move action). I think the answer is no, but at least one person in our group disagreed. Whaddaya think?
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Why would monsters stop his ability? There's nothing on the card that says he has to have a clear path to the search token. A monster standing on the token is only preventing a hero from searching because the rule is the hero has to be on the token space to search it. Tomble's ability overrides this and since there's no mention of monsters, it doesn't matter who is in his way.

-shnar
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Igor Pushkar
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Quote:
Counting Spaces
Some abilities require players to count the spaces from a figure to the
target of the ability. When counting spaces for attacks and abilities,
players ignore any non-obstacle terrain in those spaces (see “Terrain” on
page 18). The player just needs to verify that his target is in range for
the ability to reach the target. If an ability affects figures within a specified
number of spaces, line of sight is not needed unless specifically noted.
However, when counting spaces for an ability, players cannot count spaces
through a door because the spaces are not considered adjacent.


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Joshua Siegfried
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shnar wrote:
Why would monsters stop his ability? There's nothing on the card that says he has to have a clear path to the search token. A monster standing on the token is only preventing a hero from searching because the rule is the hero has to be on the token space to search it. Tomble's ability overrides this and since there's no mention of monsters, it doesn't matter who is in his way.

-shnar


I might be misunderstanding what you meant, but aren't you allowed to perform a search from the space itself or from an adjacent space? I don't understand how a monster standing on top of the search token would prevent any hero from searching.
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Kelly Overholser
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Butaman551 wrote:
shnar wrote:
Why would monsters stop his ability? There's nothing on the card that says he has to have a clear path to the search token. A monster standing on the token is only preventing a hero from searching because the rule is the hero has to be on the token space to search it. Tomble's ability overrides this and since there's no mention of monsters, it doesn't matter who is in his way.

-shnar


I might be misunderstanding what you meant, but aren't you allowed to perform a search from the space itself or from an adjacent space? I don't understand how a monster standing on top of the search token would prevent any hero from searching.


Correct, you can be adjacent to. A large monster (or several small ones) may make it impossible to actually get adjacent to the token without killing it first, but a monster standing on it doesn't prevent you from searching once you do get adjacent.
 
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Joshua Muscat
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Ok... I do not think that anyone addressed what I was asking. Let me describe the situation that came up...

There was a search token in the corner of a tile. Two ettins were blocking the entrance to that tile such that the heroes could not move adjacent to or on top of the search token without first killing one of the ettins. The player playing Tomble wanted to use his greedy skill to get the treasure because he was three spaces away from the token even though the ettins were blocking his path (to be clear, the ettins were not standing on top of the search token.. just blocking the path to approach it). The question was whether or not he could use his greedy skill since his path was blocked by the ettins. When using the 'greedy' skill does he need a clear path to the target?
 
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Kelly Overholser
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Shnar already answered it - no, the skill doesn't say anything about needing a clear path, so as long as the token's within range (remember that range ignores any figures or terrain other than obstacles), you can search it with Greedy.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Sethala wrote:
Butaman551 wrote:
shnar wrote:
Why would monsters stop his ability? There's nothing on the card that says he has to have a clear path to the search token. A monster standing on the token is only preventing a hero from searching because the rule is the hero has to be on the token space to search it. Tomble's ability overrides this and since there's no mention of monsters, it doesn't matter who is in his way.

-shnar


I might be misunderstanding what you meant, but aren't you allowed to perform a search from the space itself or from an adjacent space? I don't understand how a monster standing on top of the search token would prevent any hero from searching.


Correct, you can be adjacent to. A large monster (or several small ones) may make it impossible to actually get adjacent to the token without killing it first, but a monster standing on it doesn't prevent you from searching once you do get adjacent.

My bad, I thought you had to be on the space. That's what I get for answering on my phone and not having access to the rulebook when I answer

-shnar
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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skullcap wrote:
Ok... I do not think that anyone addressed what I was asking. Let me describe the situation that came up...

There was a search token in the corner of a tile. Two ettins were blocking the entrance to that tile such that the heroes could not move adjacent to or on top of the search token without first killing one of the ettins. The player playing Tomble wanted to use his greedy skill to get the treasure because he was three spaces away from the token even though the ettins were blocking his path (to be clear, the ettins were not standing on top of the search token.. just blocking the path to approach it). The question was whether or not he could use his greedy skill since his path was blocked by the ettins. When using the 'greedy' skill does he need a clear path to the target?

Yeah, the skill says nothing about needing a 'clear path', so of course he can use Greedy. If you want a thematic excuse, he's got a magical amulet that allows him to summon whatever's on the ground in a teleportation manner.

-shnar
 
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Stephen Thompson
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Does he actually have an amulet? We all agreed in our gaming group that there was nothing on the card that would prohibit him from searching even though the monsters were preventing line of sight, but there are a number of situations that arise where you have to make judgement calls about things that are in a gray area from a rules perspective. This seems like one of those times. Our assumption about how the the greedy ability actually worked was that the thief was able to move quickly and search an item without it counting as movement. In this case, movement would be blocked by the Etins, preventing the greedy search, even if within 3 spaces of the loot. Our debate was about how we imagined the greedy skill worked vs. the literal words listed on the card for greedy. What everybody here has said in this forum so far is no different that what we brought up last night.

How the whole situation ended up was kind of funny. We were debating back and forth about whether or not greedy could be used in this situation and our overlord, Josh, looked at the search token and laughed. It ended up being a big X (no loot), so we just killed the Etins and ended the game. Very funny (and a fun game night).
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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No, it's a game. What he actually has is the ability to search 3 spaces away. Justify it however you want, that's his ability and monsters can't do sh!t about it.

-shnar
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Kelly Overholser
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sthompson022 wrote:
Does he actually have an amulet? We all agreed in our gaming group that there was nothing on the card that would prohibit him from searching even though the monsters were preventing line of sight, but there are a number of situations that arise where you have to make judgement calls about things that are in a gray area from a rules perspective. This seems like one of those times. Our assumption about how the the greedy ability actually worked was that the thief was able to move quickly and search an item without it counting as movement. In this case, movement would be blocked by the Etins, preventing the greedy search, even if within 3 spaces of the loot. Our debate was about how we imagined the greedy skill worked vs. the literal words listed on the card for greedy. What everybody here has said in this forum so far is no different that what we brought up last night.

How the whole situation ended up was kind of funny. We were debating back and forth about whether or not greedy could be used in this situation and our overlord, Josh, looked at the search token and laughed. It ended up being a big X (no loot), so we just killed the Etins and ended the game. Very funny (and a fun game night).


The thief is also nimble enough to slip past whatever monsters may be in the way.

His love of treasure is just that powerful.
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I have a related question. My apologizes for being somewhat vague: I do not have the cards in front of me (I do not own a copy) but it came up in our last session. One of the thief's abilities that costs 3 xp allows to spend a fatigue to make a free search action. Can you use the skill in conjunction with Greedy? In other words are you performing a Search action when using Greedy or a special action? If the latter, then you cannot combine it with the other 3 xp skill. We ended up ruling that you can combine the skills (because otherwise the expensive skill would lose much of its usefulness) but it seems that the literal reading suggests otherwise: you are not performing a search action but searching according to the text of the Greedy. What do you think?
 
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Tom H
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Lurk: exhaust this card on you turn to perform a search action; this does not require an action.

A "special action" is defined as a skill that requires an action ( [arrow] icon) to use. This is not a special action. Also it is a search action.

Edit: sorry misread the question.
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Kelly Overholser
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Lurk doesn't let you use Greedy at all, it just lets you do a normal search action without spending an action to do it, and gives a small defense boost when you do so. So you still have to be adjacent to a token to use Lurk, and Greedy still takes an action to use.

I couldn't quite understand the rest of your question, let me know if you're still confused about something.
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Udu Tont
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Thanks for the skill name and qoute! However, I understand that Lurk is neither a special action nor a search action: it modifies a search action. My question is: can you use Lurk with Greedy to Search from afar? That is, if you are using Greedy are you effectively performing a search action or a special action?

Edit: posted it before the last post.
 
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Sethala wrote:
Lurk doesn't let you use Greedy at all, it just lets you do a normal search action without spending an action to do it, and gives a small defense boost when you do so. So you still have to be adjacent to a token to use Lurk, and Greedy still takes an action to use.


It is rather the other way around: can you use Lurk when you use Greedy. But I understand your point. I agree that literal reading implies that these skills do not combine. (Hmm, however, I still think that it would be a good idea to allow the combo: Greedy is a default skill and Lurk is very expensive. Not allowing the combo makes the Lurk much less appealing. In general, skills seem to be designed in a way that allows more and more powerful combos.)
 
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Kelly Overholser
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You could houserule it, but the basic idea is that in order to use Lurk, you have to be adjacent to the token. Neither skill "modifies the search action", they're both separate actions that you can take. Both allow you to perform a search action (and that action could be modified by a skill like Appraisal), but you can't combine them.

Similarly, the berserker can't use both Rage and Charge as the same action to move and perform an attack for more damage, even if he pays the fatigue cost for both skills. However, if he has Weapon Mastery or Execute, he could use either or both skills on the attack, as they actually do modify an attack.
 
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Are you sayng that you have an action (Lurk) which is not a search action that allows to make a search action without using an action
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Tom H
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No. Lurk is not an action.
 
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Joshua Muscat
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Hmm... I am still not convinced that greedy can be used if monsters block the path. People here have stated their opinions one way or the other, but I am not seeing anything in the rules that substantiate said opinions.

Someone above quoted the following passage from the rules...

Quote:
Counting Spaces
Some abilities require players to count the spaces from a figure to the
target of the ability. When counting spaces for attacks and abilities,
players ignore any non-obstacle terrain in those spaces (see “Terrain” on
page 18). The player just needs to verify that his target is in range for
the ability to reach the target. If an ability affects figures within a specified
number of spaces, line of sight is not needed unless specifically noted.
However, when counting spaces for an ability, players cannot count spaces
through a door because the spaces are not considered adjacent.


It does not address the issue though. It only says that players ignore non-obstacle terrain when counting spaces to the target of the ability. Monsters are not terrain. This does not cover the situation I am asking about. The passage then goes on to state that if a ability affects a figure within the range of the effect, that line of sight is not needed. This also does not apply to the situation I was asking about as the monsters that I think should block the greedy ability were not the target of the greedy effect.

The argument that we must assume that Tomble has a magical amulet that lets him teleport treasure does nto hold water in my opinion. There are many instances in this game where judgment calls need to be made, and I look to the flavor text for guidance as such. The ability is called 'greedy', which seems to imply that having that ability flows from the fact that he is indeed greedy. I take this to mean that so far as treasure is concerned, he is motivated to move faster than he otherwise would. It does not make sense to me that being greedy would allow him to slip past monsters (which is something that usually can not be done) twice (once to get to the treasure, and once to get back) within a ten second time frame.

In any case, since the rules do not address the question (as far as I can tell), I must wait for the game designers to clarify the issue it would seem.



 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Door != Monster

-shnar
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Casey Botkin
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"The player just needs to verify that his target is in range" still seems pretty clear to me.
 
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Ian Kelly
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Exceptio probat regulam. Doors are specifically listed as an exception to the counting spaces rule. If monsters were an exception, they would be mentioned also.
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Luca C
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Exactly. BTW has anyone noticed that all these "gray area" situations caused by poorly worded action descriptions and actions that do not make sense have always ultimately ended up being ruled in favor of the heroes?
 
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