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Subject: Yet another end game question rss

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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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OK, you have a board where there's a couple of companies that can't connect to a second company and no other company can connect to them. But if there was another share sold the company could possibly get the money to connect. Can the game end before those shares are sold, or do players have to put the shares up for auction so that the companies can then get the money to connect? We had this situation today and we decided that no one should be forced to put up shares for auction for the game to get to the end game condition. Right or wrong?
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Thomas Cowart
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It's still "possible", so I'd say you should have continued playing. I'm not JB, though. Try asking the winsome yahoo group too.
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Costas
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Wrong. In your example, it is possible for railroads to connect if shares are sold.

It is not possible if railroads have no more trains with which to connect, or a railroad has built in such a way to prevent connection, or railroads still have trains but cannot afford to build them and there are no more shares available.

The game rules wrote:
The game ends immediately if, during Player Order determination, each railroad directly connects to at least two other railroads or if all players agree that this will not be possible anymore.

 
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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So then everyone keeps passing because they don't want to auction off the share. Then what? I would find it strange where a game forces players to take an action that no one may want to take.
 
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J C Lawrence
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I don't recall passing being a legal action choice (I am away from my copy).
 
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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clearclaw wrote:
I don't recall passing being a legal action choice (I am away from my copy).


Yes, passing is legal.
 
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J C Lawrence
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In which case someone is winning and someone is losing, and the losing player had better change something.
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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clearclaw wrote:
In which case someone is winning and someone is losing, and the losing player had better change something.


The problem was that selling the share at a price where it could get its second merge was problematic. I should have taken a picture of the situation at the time so I could better describe it to you guys. Basically if that share is sold at that price, there's no guarantee that the person buying it would ever get a turn. If the next turn sequence comes up and that person doesn't get it a turn, then the game continues on, and depending on who bought that share, they could have gone from winning to losing, particularly if other shares were then sold so that other companies could actually do the merger. The person that was losing was in first place by a space so what was he to do? He decided he didn't want to auction the share, the other two of us didn't see why we should auction the share and the game went into a temporary stasis until we decided to end it using the interpretation above.
 
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Eugene
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Interesting scenario. How much was needed in the company coffers for it to have enough to get its second merge?
 
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I believe the situation could have been calculated since it was so near to the end, unless the game was ultra tight (I have tied a victory once and I wouldn't have won if I hadn't ended the game with track building).

It's quite hard to say what each player should have done since we don't know the details. Was the auctioned share the last share of the company? I believe somebody could have bid very low for the share that the company doesn't even have the chance to connect with its money or the close to winning players could have calculated the situation but if the fresh money in the company would give future chances for other companies to connect first when the given company approaches them, then it gets more complicated.
 
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J C Lawrence
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As in Wabash Cannonball, turn order is often critical, with the share being worth more to the player next in turn order than it is to the auctioning player.
 
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Costas
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rockusultimus wrote:
Wrong. In your example, it is possible for railroads to connect if shares are sold.

It is not possible if railroads have no more trains with which to connect, or a railroad has built in such a way to prevent connection, or railroads still have trains but cannot afford to build them and there are no more shares available.

The game rules wrote:
The game ends immediately if, during Player Order determination, each railroad directly connects to at least two other railroads or if all players agree that this will not be possible anymore.

John sent me the following email with regards to the above post:

John Bohrer wrote:
Thanks for providing a complete, comprehensive answer that includes the actual rules text, Costas!
You can quote me here on BGG, that should complete the thread.
John
 
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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So in John's opinion we should still be playing the game and saying 'pass'? Really?

After more thought on this I'm going to house rule it and say if everyone passes the game is over.
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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garygarison wrote:
Interesting scenario. How much was needed in the company coffers for it to have enough to get its second merge?


10. It needed 10. It was the black company. I was leading in the game, and I had two black shares. Why would someone want to buy the last share and help me even more? Now certainly the losing player could have still bought that share hoping to make it into second place (it was a three player game) but as I said, he chose not to.
 
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EGG Head
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why didn't you put it up for auction
 
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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lorna wrote:
why didn't you put it up for auction


Because if the game stopped then, I'd win. No need for me to put it up for auction. That's just throwing away money Unless you mean 'you' as 'any/all of you players' and then I'd say I've answered that .

I don't belong to the Yahoo group, but I do have John's email, so maybe I'll email him about it. It's an unlikely situation (maybe even extremely rare) so I might not bother.
 
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Eugene
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Now I'm kind of confused. If the situation was...

1. Black has to connect to end the game
2. Black needs $10 do do this
3. You have the first two shares of Black

...then it appears you should have no disinclination to auction off the third Black share. By this late stage in the game, a share of Black should have been worth far more than a mere $10.
 
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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But why would I do it? I'm winning now. I should do it so the game can end in the way the designer/publisher wants it to?? That doesn't make sense to me. If everyone can pass, why not go with what's on the table now and wait them out? Eventually (even if they were very stubborn which they weren't), we'd have to go home and I'd win.

Or maybe another solution is to say there is a tie when everyone passes. Then I would be motivated to put the share up because otherwise I don't win.
 
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Eugene
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Why would you do it? Because you're winning and it will make you more money over everyone else at the table. That alone should be reason enough. That it will also allow you to end the game and win is just frosting on the cake.
 
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EGG Head
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jschlickbernd wrote:
lorna wrote:
why didn't you put it up for auction


Because if the game stopped then, I'd win. No need for me to put it up for auction. That's just throwing away money Unless you mean 'you' as 'any/all of you players' and then I'd say I've answered that .

I don't belong to the Yahoo group, but I do have John's email, so maybe I'll email him about it. It's an unlikely situation (maybe even extremely rare) so I might not bother.
what gary said
 
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J C Lawrence
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jschlickbernd wrote:
But why would I do it? I'm winning now. I should do it so the game can end in the way the designer/publisher wants it to?? That doesn't make sense to me.


"Winning" does not equal "has won".
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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OK so we have this situation.

I have the most money and I'm second on the income track. I though am first on the turn track.

Bruce has approx. $20 less. He's third on the income track.

Jay has $50 less, he's first on the income track.

As mentioned, Black needed $10 to make its second connection. Brown had enough trains to connect to Black but no money.

So (rules aside) what should have happened? I still don't see me opening the can of worms to auction Black. I want someone else to use their turn to do that because nothing bad can happen to me if they do. I have two Blacks, I can get more money yes, but I don't lose money unless I bid for Black. Bruce isn't going to bid for Black because again in the end, all that does is increase my lead. Same with Jay.

OK so let's say Bruce puts up Brown on his turn (assuming he had a turn this round; I really don't recall what the turn order was behind me). The auction ends with enough money for Brown to get to Black, but the player who bought it naturally loses that much money in the short term, since shares don't have any value at the end of the game. If go third, sure I put up Black. Assuming all of us get one turn next turn I still win because there's no move they can make that can beat me. The only reason to Bruce or Jay to put up Black is to hope that the next turn I don't get a turn at all. Well that would depend on who bought which shares, but it's not likely that I would buy shares, so I would still not be in front, meaning that I was likely to get at least one turn. If I get a turn, I pull away. If I don't get a turn, then Bruce could possibly win.

So I guess you could argue that Bruce should have put up the Black share, simply hoping that I would not get a turn. He didn't think it was worth keeping the game going to do all that.

I still feel that there should be a rule to deal with this and as I continue to think about this, the "if everyone passes, the game ends in a tie" rule is probably best. Then I would have put up the Black share for sure and not passed.
 
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Eugene
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Am I correct in assuming that Bruce and Jay each have a share of Brown?
 
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J C Lawrence
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You can auction black and bid the current value without risk.
 
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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garygarison wrote:
Am I correct in assuming that Bruce and Jay each have a share of Brown?


No, one of them has a Brown and I have a Brown.
 
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