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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » General

Subject: Los and adjacency. You can not be serious rss

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Stephen Paget
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So the Los rules allow you to see around corners.
The adjacency rules allow you to attack a figure on the opposite side of a wall to you with no penalty.

Come on! It makes terrain practically useless. Why?
I would house rule it but I'm pretty sure it would effect balance.
 
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Igor Pushkar
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As long as LOS rules equally affect both sides (heroes and monsters) "balance" is not effected I believe.
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Stephen Paget
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soddy wrote:
As long as LOS rules equally affect both sides (heroes and monsters) "balance" is not effected I believe.


In 'first blood' for example, A goblin can round the corner to the exit with 2 move actions. If you change the Los rules it makes it much more difficult for a hero with a ranged attack to stop it
 
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Robert
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stephenpaget wrote:
The adjacency rules allow you to attack a figure on the opposite side of a wall

What are you talking about? This isn't in the rules?
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Jeff Edgar
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Technically, the two squares would share a corner and therefore you can trace a line from corner to corner. This is only in the instance where both figures are at thw end of the wall. If i remember correctly, there are some walls where the black dividing line obscures the corner, meaning this would not be the case.
 
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Stephen Paget
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RobertDD wrote:
stephenpaget wrote:
The adjacency rules allow you to attack a figure on the opposite side of a wall

What are you talking about? This isn't in the rules?

Rule book page 10 'any space that shares an edge or corner with another space is defined as being adjacent to that space', so two orthogonally adjacent squares with a wall between them are considered to be adjacent because they share a corner. You also have Los to the other side of the wall.
 
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Dan Poole
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I also think this whole thing about 2 spaces with a wall between them actually share LOS is pretty stupid. Unless someone from FF verifies it is true, I am not going to believe it. I don't think they intended for "adjacent" spaces with a wall between them to be consisdered adjacent. If someone from FF has already commented upon this, please let me know. Otherwise I will continue to apply common sense to the rules.
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Mariano Rico
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If two spaces separated by a door are not considered adjacent, how on earth if sepparated by a wall is going to be considered differently?
 
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Stephen Paget
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Acererak wrote:
If two spaces separated by a door are not considered adjacent, how on earth if sepparated by a wall is going to be considered differently?

If the door was free standing i.e no walls either side of it then the spaces on opposite sides of the door would be adjacent.

Have look at tile 13a. At the top of the tile are 4 orthogonally adjacent squares with a 'door' bordering 2 of them. A figure in the far left square would apparently be adjacent to a figure on the other side of the wall if the door was open
 
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Mariano Rico
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stephenpaget wrote:

If the door was free standing i.e no walls either side of it then the spaces on opposite sides of the door would be adjacent.


Weird example to illustrate your arguments, at the least. Makes me think of Alice in Wonderland with doors standing in the middle of an empty field.


stephenpaget wrote:

Have look at tile 13a. At the top of the tile are 4 orthogonally adjacent squares with a 'door' bordering 2 of them. A figure in the far left square would apparently be adjacent to a figure on the other side of the wall if the door was open


Far left upper square of that tile shares a complete black border (wall) that even continues a bit into the next square. I see a pretty solid line there dividing both spaces that donĀ“t even share a free corner. For me is crystal clear that wall is as solid (even more) as a closed door and thus makes both squares non adjacent.

I could even go as far as to say that the next square in the lower row is not adjacent to the same upper left square since the only corner they share is obscured by the wall as well (and seems logical not to allow melee combat between those two as well), although they would have LoS since a line can be traced from upper right corner of the top one to upper right of the bottom one. But that would be applicable to regular corners as well, and we know by the examples in the rule book that those are indeed adjacent.
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Igor Pushkar
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You will not believe me, but according to the rules, you have LOS in that situation.

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Stephen Paget
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Have a look at this

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/832765/walls-adjacency-movem...
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Andy Mills
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Cracky McCracken
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soddy wrote:
You will not believe me, but according to the rules, you have LOS in that situation.



Is this serious? Is this a legal ranged attack in D2ed?!?
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Andy Mills
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Find the tiles that allow this situation to even be set up in the first place. Yes, it's legal, but it'll never happen in game.
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Frank Franco
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Yep. And people still defend it.
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Cracky McCracken
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I don't own the game, so i'm not taking into account how the tiles are designed.

Why in the hell does every game like this have to have it's own unique LOS system? Just to be a little different? The rest of D2ed better be good because that LOS system is dumb, period. Doesn't matter what the tiles look like, look at the example and use common sense, the red square cannot see the green square.
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Derrek Kyzar
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Zeratul141 wrote:
Technically, the two squares would share a corner and therefore you can trace a line from corner to corner. This is only in the instance where both figures are at thw end of the wall. If i remember correctly, there are some walls where the black dividing line obscures the corner, meaning this would not be the case.


I don't think this is the case.

Page 18 of the rulebook under terrain states..
Quote:
Many map tiles also feature artwork that does not directly affect gameplay. All spaces on a map tile that are not surrounded by a specific colored line as listed here are treated as normal spaces regardless of the artwork.


If neither of the squares around the corner has a red border, it's artwork and are treated as normal spaces. I know the tile you are talking about, from the 1st quest. There was the same issue in D1. Some tiles had a little stonework protruding out.

I realize that they are also talking about the artwork of the tables, campfire, etc, but technically, it's all artwork.
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Sylvain BONNEAU
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If you imagine that a figure permanently occupies the whole surface of the square, it kind of makes sense. Like if its miniature base is a larger disc, its diameter the diagonal of the square.

Tracing LoS to center tends to suggest that the figure occupies part of its square, not 100% but enough so that the center of the square is certain to be covered. Tracing LoS to corners means that the figure covers all four corners of its square all the time.

I'd prefer LoS to be traced from any point to center: the attacker can lean anyway he want to get a clear aim ; the defender is somewhere in his square but cannot lean sufficiently to get out of sight of an enemi tracing to the square center.

And now I'm drunk.

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Cracky McCracken
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Doom draws LOS from "center to center", but allows LOS to clip corners the way D2ed seems to. Works pretty well for determining LOS but allows you to take some pretty unlikely shots.

What works for corners is if you draw from one corner of the shooter's square to two corners of the target's square. Red and Green would not have LOS using say D&D4e's LOS sysytem.

I've never seen a game go from corner to corner like this. A hero would need a wall 3 squares wide to take cover. A one square wall would provide no cover i guess...
 
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John "Omega" Williams
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A wall a complete 1 square thick should be enough to block LOS.

Think of it as like in those movies where the heroes and villains are all behind walls and corners taking shots at eachother by poking out briefly. Someone sooner or later pokes out at the wrong time and gets a bullet or arrow for it.
 
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Theis Magle
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stephenpaget wrote:

please use your energi on the other thread. It is stupit that we have 2 thread cover the same. The point in this thread are well discuss in the other thread!

 
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Cracky McCracken
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I don't feel like reading an old thread, i want to participate in a new one. You go read the old thread friend.
 
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Theis Magle
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Cracky wrote:
I don't feel like reading an old thread, i want to participate in a new one. You go read the old thread friend.

but it is still a active thread. So if your are interested in this subject you have to follow 2 thread, that is stupit.
Yes is old and so what if it already answer the questions in this thread?

Read hinges reply on page 3, then you know more of this subject than you do if you read all replies on this thread.
 
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Mike Spartz
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Most of the tiles that have a wall that sticks out actually have the art for the wall itself obscure the corner. I was wondering why some of the art had the black stick out a weirdly odd amount. Now I know its for this reason. to see what I mean, look at tile 12a. all of the corners that stick out (the one in the water stands out especially) have the black that represents the wall extend into the art and obscure the grid.

also, in one adventure i just ran, i had tle 24a connected to 8a and when put together the corner it creates has the black that represents the edge of the map extend a little past the corner itself so the corner of the grid is obscured. you can not draw line of sight to it because the corner is not physically represented on the grid.
 
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