Lord_Ntanos Karkavilas
Greece
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Tides are good for novice players who do not actually understand the mechanics of the Game to their full extend.

Period.

Tides can ruin the fun for the player who actually uses stratagem in his game. One may select to "lose" some battles in order to deplete his enemy of his good cards and then counter. With tides a really lucky player can destroy this.

Explaining by facts:

I played Tyrell and the opponent was Martel. I used the cards in my hand by calculating that I won in every draw possible. 4 times in a row he got 3vs0, 2vs0, 1-Swordvs0 and finally a 0+skullvs0. In the first 4 battles I could have had him running to Sunspear and instead he took Highgarden in round 3, since I kept losing my units instead of him losing his own.

No fun at all I assure you.

On another occasion, Baratheon moves 2 ships into the Narrow Sea on turn one and Musters on Dragonstone. Stark descends with a +1 march from the Shivering to the Narrow Sea. A 2vs2 situation, where Stark wins and causes 2 casualties, using Eddard. Baratheon plays Stannis and draws a Tide of 1+ Sword. Baratheon kills Stark ship instead of losing his own ships and musters another 2 ships in Shipbreaker Bay.

Stark's game is over, in round 1...not fun at all...

On another recent session, Baratheon chose to push Martel. Martel played poorly his round 1 orders and it was possible. Baratheon lost 3 battles in a row with Martel drawing 2 times a 3 card and one time a 2 card versus Bara's 0's. Turn 4 Martel had Dragonstone.

When experienced players are involved, no Tides is the best option. There is no middle ground there.
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Seli L
Czech Republic
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yontory wrote:
Recently my friend has voiced concern regarding the card and how its randomness negates the need to think strategically.


Exactly.

yontory wrote:
While I understand his dislike of the card, I think playing with ToB is necessary.


Because ... ?

yontory wrote:

So I'm proposing this variant, not to solve the issue, but rather to offer a middle-ground for both sides of the argument:


Huh?

Let me tell you about my experience with ToB cards: We decided to try them out in one PBEM game (which is still in progress but about to end). And we played with a reduced set with only up to +1 cards (i.e. +2/+3 removed).

There were 2 players which played the best and they both were quite close to gaining enough ground to win, but now they both have kingdoms that have practically crumbled to dust. Why? Because almost whenever they fought an important battle, the ToB cards favoured the opponent. Not necessarily by giving them the +1 (it's surprising how many battles with good players actually end up in a draw), there were even cases when the opponent got an extra sword that killed off all the three defending units (having just one left would be enough for a counterattack the next turn). And one of the two players held the blade almost the whole game. From my point of view, the game sucked a lot. Ok, you can say that was a lot of rotten luck, but that doesn't change anything about the fact that every single well-thought out plan in the game failed because of ToB cards and the game is going to be won by somebody who hasn't really done anything interesting in the game besides now picking up pieces.

I can see only 3 things to do with ToB cards:
- not play with them, if you want a good game
- play with them, if you are bored
- play with them, if you want to level the playing field (good players will have their good plans ruined, poor players won't have good plans)
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Lord_Ntanos Karkavilas
Greece
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Gods of the Inferno....I completely agree with Seli_L.
 
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Davis Stringer
United States
Mississippi
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Yes. I have never really understood why some folks don't want dice rolls, or in this case cards which simulate the intangibles that you can't have at this scale. War is not predictable all the time. And sometimes strategy has little to do with who wins. Sometimes it's who seized the moment or went above and beyond. Anyone who is a parent or who has been in combat knows that rarely does a plan survive in it's original form after first contact with children or the enemy whichever applies! Examples of what a little randomness simulates, though not limited to:

1) A vastly outnumbered force in a good TACTICAL (no way to otherwise simulate without a random factor) defensive position just refuses to budge, taking heavy casualties but inflicting worse.... Greeks use a "3" card or roll a "6" at Thermopolae. You guys would just hand the Persians the victory because they "should" win. In point of fact they did win but it doesn't feel like a victory. In game turns it would probably be something like it took two or three "battles' to oust them from said location

2) You cowardly troops just refuse to stay on the field despite your best laid plans Mr. Mouse. A portent of doom has fallen over the army lol

3) A force that should lose has just the right intelligence or luck to find some tactical or otherwise horrific blunder (by design or accident) and rout the enemy because. Examples Arbela, Chancellorsville, Chickamauga

4) Deception, Fog of War... I have 2,000 but you think I have 10,000. At some decisive point I am winning and you think I am not nearly as spent as I am. You withdraw ...or run.

5) Never underestimate the decapitating effect of a leader casualty at the right moment

6) Specifically for GOT. Does your best "soldier" simply squat on the toilet till his card comes back up. He may yet be at this battle anyway. You could be simulating his effect.

7) Troops drunk

8) Bushwack

9) Fill in blank


A random factor is much closer to reality. All the other factors greatly increase chance of victory but it is NEVER gauranteed Herr Goering! Ooops the RAF just rolled a "6" to your "1" !!!
 
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Adam McLean
United States
Tucson
Arizona
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I get what you're saying Davis, but AGoT having no dice is precisely why many people play the game. This is a tactical and strategic game, and in particular, if you have come up with a good strategy of your own play as well as manipulating the other players to do some of your bidding ... then you absolutely don't want to have it all wrecked by a random element.

There are games that certainly benefit from having a dice roll, and fun ones at that, but this is not one of them. I do agree that there would be variables is war that couldn't be accounted for, but that's why there are war games.

That being said, if someone wanted to come up with a completely re-vamped design to do battle, I'd be up for trying it
 
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