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Subject: peacekeeping force rss

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jerry adamsson
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Is it possible for a major power to interfere in a war without , so to say, being at war ?

Example: Soviet union declares war on finland, Germany sends a corps to Helsinki,but Germany isn´t at war with Soviet union, IS THIS POSSIBLE to do ?


/jerry
 
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Wendell
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This is one of the thorniest things in WIF.

Your example, USSR declares war on Finland. The Finns align to Germany. German units can enter aligned minors so yes, they can enter Finland.

But they aren't immune. Read 9.9 (Multiple States of War) carefully. In the second paragraph, it specifies that although you normally cannot attack a unit you are not at war with, you MAY attack it if it is in a hex controlled by somebody you ARE at war with. So for example, German units in a hex in Finland (Finland being at war with USSR, and unconquered minor countries control their own hexes) CAN be attacked by the Soviets.

Note, however, that GERMAN units could NOT attack Soviets in Finland! Finnish units, under control of the German player, of course can attack.

So the "peacekeepers" (not an official WIF term but widely used) are at a disadvantage. Another disadvantage - the Luftwaffe cannot fly to support a hex containing only Finnish troops which is under attack by the Soviets. If German ground troops were involved, they could.
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Simon Nicholls
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I have never liked this rule effect in WiF. It rests on the fact that when an unaligned minor is attacked it has to align with a Major - and such alignment then allows MP units to enter the minor.

Unless I am mistaken (always a possibility), this does not apply when playing with DoD - in such a case the minor is initially only directed by a Major Power and MP units are specifically prohibited from entering hexes controlled by the minor until the minor is aligned by play of a Political Option.

In the example above, the German's could only move units into Finland once they have aligned it by option play - and you can only do this if you are at war with another major power, the minor is allied to you (and no one else) and it is stacked with you on the political display. Basically, while I think peacekeepers are possible in DoD/WiF- they are very unlikely.
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Bruce Jurin
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To add some flavor to what Wendell said, I think it helps to remember a rule if you can understand some of the reasons for the rule. This rule, although it seems 'weird', is necessary in many places to prevent abuses. So unfortunately, a complex rule is the lesser of evils.

Say if in your example, the Germans weren’t allowed to send units into Finland. What could a Soviet do? The USSR can declare war on Belgium (say instead of declaring war on Finland). Belgium of course then aligns to Germany.

If, in your example, the Germans wouldn’t be able to enter Finland without declaring war on the USSR, then in my example they couldn’t go through Belgium either! Therefore, the German player either must declare war on the USSR while still fighting France (very bad), or it must try to defeat France without going through Belgium (very difficult). This situation would be a game breaker.

So we have the Multiple States of War rules in 9.9. Now, if the USSR declares war on Belgium, and Belgium aligns to Germany, Germany may simply move through Belgium which is worse than useless for the USSR.

And by ‘reverse’ analogy Finland is the same. If the USSR is at war with Finland, and Finland aligns to Germany, then Germany may move through Finland. As Wendell said, though, there are severe restrictions on what they can do. They are called ‘peacekeepers’ largely because they can basically stand there and defend, and they can move, but they can do little else and they can be attacked!

Having said that, there are a lot of poeple who play with house rules because they don't like the peacekeeper rule - as always with these rules, though, it is important to think through the potential abuses. I've seen many a house rule where the cure was a lot worse than the original issue (or is even more complicated)!

I suspect that the 'Multiple States of War' rules generate more questions than any other topic.



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jerry adamsson
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Thank you all for the answers.
Another thing.... the German unit in the example has to get transported to Finland, are you able to do anything about that ? I guess you can´t attack a German TRS while you are not at war with Germany.
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Wendell
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jerryjugend wrote:
Thank you all for the answers.
Another thing.... the German unit in the example has to get transported to Finland, are you able to do anything about that ? I guess you can´t attack a German TRS while you are not at war with Germany.


You are correct - can't attack a German TRS carrying a German unit. But if the Germans are foolish enough to actually put the TRS into a Finnish port you could bomb it there!
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Fredrik Bonander
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Another question regarding "peace-keepers".

If the Soviet Union is no longer neutral. Then, could they send peace-keepers to an unconquered Poland?

Furthermore, is it possible to send peace-keepers although the Soviet Union has clamied Eastern Poland?
 
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Wendell
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FredrikBonander wrote:
Another question regarding "peace-keepers".

If the Soviet Union is no longer neutral. Then, could they send peace-keepers to an unconquered Poland?

Furthermore, is it possible to send peace-keepers although the Soviet Union has clamied Eastern Poland?


I don't see anything to prohibit either action by the Soviets, but again the Germans can attack ANY UNIT (Soviet, Polish, whoever) in a Polish-controlled hex, and the Soviets cannot enter a German-controlled hex.
 
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Fredrik Bonander
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And as I see it peace-keepers do not seem to extend a ZOC into hostile hexes (rule 2.2). Although, it extends a ZOC into friendly hexes.

Thus, a hostile unit who enters a fiendly hex next to a peace-keeper has to stop moving. If a hostile unit only enters hexes that is controlled by that side and which is next to a peace-keeping unit, then ZOC is not extended and the hostile unit don't have to stop moving.

Right?
 
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Fredrik Bonander
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Soviet units cannot draw supply through allied hexes (prior to war with Germany). Thus, the Soviet ability to send peace-keepers is limited in reality.
 
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Wendell
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FredrikBonander wrote:
And as I see it peace-keepers do not seem to extend a ZOC into hostile hexes (rule 2.2). Although, it extends a ZOC into friendly hexes.

Thus, a hostile unit who enters a fiendly hex next to a peace-keeper has to stop moving. If a hostile unit only enters hexes that is controlled by that side and which is next to a peace-keeping unit, then ZOC is not extended and the hostile unit don't have to stop moving.

Right?


By definition, there are no units hostile to a peace-keeper - they aren't at war, that's what makes it a "peace-keeper". So for example, German movement won't be effected by a Soviet unit's presence in an adjacent hex because the ZOC isn't an "enemy ZOC" (11.11) AND vice-versa. Likewise, neither German nor Polish ZOCs will make the Soviets have to stop moving.

11.11 Land Movement wrote:
A unit must always end its move when it enters an enemy ZOC (exception: it can continue moving if it then overruns a land unit in the next hex ~ see 11.11.6). You can move a unit which starts its move in an enemy ZOC directly into another enemy ZOC (even a ZOC of the same unit).
 
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