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Subject: Healing a dieing wizard, and the short sword. rss

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Sean Turner
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I have a couple other HQ questions.

First, the Wizard was killed by a wandering orc, and still had his healing spell. The rules state that he can save himself by drinking a potion or casting a spell on himself. But I thought he could only cast spells on his turn. So the Wizard had to remain dead. If this is case, then when can the wizard ever save himself by casting healing? He will never be killed by a monster on his turn, and if he takes damage from a chest, he will already have used his action for that turn opening the chest. Can healing be cast at anytime?

Second, Why would you ever buy a short sword? The elf carries a dagger,with the same attack, and dwarf already carries a short sword. The Barbarian has a Broadsword which deals more damage. Of course the wizard can not carry one. Am I missing something? It seems to me that it is a useless weapon. Unless the Dwarf throws his dagger and then needs a weapon. but it really seems like a waste.

New to the game, so thanks for the help.
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Simon Wiese
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(1) The Healing spell is supposed to be cast in the wizard's turn, that's right. If the wizard has lost some of his bodypoints, he can cast the healing spell on himself in his turn or on another hurt character. I do not really get your point here... As you have said, you cannot cast the healing spell just after you have been attacked or lost some bodypoints due to a trap. So in other words: You cast the healing spell in your turn, after you have lost bodypoints but before you are dead If the wizard loses all of his bodypoints during a single GM turn... well, that's bad luck and he cannot save himself devil

(2) I cannot really help you on this one since I got the European version of the game, but as far as I can remember the shortsword gives you the ability to attack diagonally, the dagger probably does not have this ability (not sure on this one)
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Tim M-L
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I believe the ability to cast a healing spell at death is an exception to the typical rules for casting spells.

I think the Short sword is included more to present a set of weapons to use as options for scenarios, rather than as an excellent strategic choice. For example, isn't there a magic sword based off the short sword?
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Kevin Riddle

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I think that is the long sword that can attack diagonally

I was thinking it can pair up well with the shield, where as the longsword is a two-handed sword, just an idea ...

as far as the potion, yes, the wizard would be dead, but then again
I like to add a little lee way for my kiddos to have more fun and not have their characters dying all the time ...
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Simon Wiese
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scout13 wrote:
I think that is the long sword that can attack diagonally



I was curios and checked it again, but in the German version, we have the following melee weapons:

Club - 1 die, diagonally, 100 gold
Short Sword - 2 dice, diagonally, 150 gold, not for the wizard
Axe - 2 dice, 150 gold, can be cast in a straight line, not for the wizard
Lance - 2 dice, diagonally, 150 gold, can be cast, not for the wizard
Long Sword - 3 dice, 250 gold, not for the wizard
Battle Axe - 4 dice, 400 gold, not usuable together with the shield, not for the wizard

But as we can see, the weapons are not really balanced here, as well. Axe and Lance cost the same while the axe has a restriction the lance does not have
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Slev Sleddeddan
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IF the wizard is somehow killed on his own turn (such as with a trap), and sill has an opportunity to cast a spell, he can cast it to prevent his own death.

In the originalgame, the shortsword is a waste in most cases, yes. Many people have re-written the armoury though (including me), and many of these re-writes are better.
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Sean Turner
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Here is the scenario,

The wizard searched for treasure. (his action) And a wandering monster appeared. The monster rolled three hits and took his last three points so he died.

he still had the healing spell, and I felt since he used his action to search for treasure, he could not cast the spell. Healing potions state on the card that they can be consumed at anytime. I told him if he had the potion, he could have saved himself.

The rules in the book state that if a character is taken down to 0 HP, he can cast a healing spell or drink a healing potion to save himself. What I don't understand, is when could he use the healing spell to save himself? Is the intent that he can use healing anytime? He will either lose his last hitpoint by a monster, which means it is not his turn, or by an action (Search for treasure etc.) which means he will have used his action. Neither of these give him the opportunity to cast the spell.

Is there an exception for the healing spell that he could use it, even though he had used his action, to save himself?

(I know I might be an evil GM to do this to my 10 year old son, but he lost his first hit point by searching for treasure and not listening to the dwarf and waiting for the dwarf to search for traps. He was being greedy, and kind of got what was coming to him.)
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Ted Conn
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I agree with Tim. The wizard can cast Heal to save himself out of turn. It's the only time he can do that. More often than not, he's already used that spell somewhere else in the dungeon, but sometimes the need arises.
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BlackSimon wrote:
scout13 wrote:
I think that is the long sword that can attack diagonally



I was curios and checked it again, but in the German version, we have the following melee weapons:

Short Sword - 2 dice, diagonally, 150 gold, not for the wizard
Axe - 2 dice, 150 gold, can be cast in a straight line, not for the wizard


WHAT! The Short Sword in the German edition could attack diagonally? Then finally a mysterie from the past has been solved. In the Dutch version, the short sword was useless. But this extra diagonal abilty makes it useful. I guess this was an errata on the Dutch version. Great to know. Any pictures?

Edit: I just checked the German Short Sword at YeOldeInn.com and you're correct! It can attack diagonally. GREAT DISCOVERY! Have some GG
For clarity, I'm talking about the European version of HQ. I just noticed that there are English versions of the Short Sword that can attack diagonally too. Only my Dutch version has the useless version of the sword (without diagonal attack). eBay, here I come!
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My UK version has the short sword which cannot attack diagonally, only provides two dice, and cannot be used by the wizard, making it beyond useless!
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Simon Wiese
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tocoking wrote:
BlackSimon wrote:
scout13 wrote:
I think that is the long sword that can attack diagonally



I was curios and checked it again, but in the German version, we have the following melee weapons:

Short Sword - 2 dice, diagonally, 150 gold, not for the wizard
Axe - 2 dice, 150 gold, can be cast in a straight line, not for the wizard


WHAT! The Short Sword in the German edition could attack diagonally? Then finally a mysterie from the past has been solved. In the Dutch version, the short sword was useless. But this extra diagonal abilty makes it useful. I guess this was an errata on the Dutch version. Great to know. Any pictures?

Edit: I just checked the German Short Sword at YeOldeInn.com and you're correct! It can attack diagonally. GREAT DISCOVERY! Have some GG
For clarity, I'm talking about the European version of HQ. I just noticed that there are English versions of the Short Sword that can attack diagonally too. Only my Dutch version has the useless version of the sword (without diagonal attack). eBay, here I come!


Here you are
http://s14.directupload.net/file/d/2970/qpnd64x2_jpg.htm#
Unfortunately, BBG upload does not seem to work for me :/
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Sean Turner
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My US version does not have the weapons cards, it also does not have healing potion cards. I bought it used, am I missing them? or were they never included? my set seemed complete and they were not listed in the manual.
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Simon Wiese
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Saltone wrote:
My US version does not have the weapons cards, it also does not have healing potion cards. I bought it used, am I missing them? or were they never included? my set seemed complete and they were not listed in the manual.


No, the weapon cards were not included in the US edition of the game, instead you have an Armory chart something like that and of course the Chaos spells (which we do not have unfortunately )
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BlackSimon wrote:
Saltone wrote:
My US version does not have the weapons cards, it also does not have healing potion cards. I bought it used, am I missing them? or were they never included? my set seemed complete and they were not listed in the manual.


No, the weapon cards were not included in the US edition of the game, instead you have an Armory chart something like that and of course the Chaos spells (which we do not have unfortunately )

The US version is a lot more fun and challenging. Chaos spells, variable hit points for the monsters. Things like that.
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Check out the More Information section of the Hero Quest page here on BGG. The UK version lists the Equipment cards, but there is no entry for the US version. That's because the Equipment cards aren't included in the US Game System. The UK version was released earlier, and so there are a few differences. If you like, you could visit the yeoldinne website (linked on this BGG HQ page) and print out the scans, then fasion your own cards.

However, as BlackSimon indicated, most of the same weapons and equipment is represented on the Armory cardboard platform found as an insert in the US version. I imagine your set has it. That's all you need, as the US version has you record new weapons and equipment on a Hero's Character Sheet.

Comparing the UK Equipment cards to the US Armory cardbord platform, you'll notice some differences in weapons. The UK game set even has two editions while there are various EU editions (German, Dutch, etc.) as well. While the EU editions are more or less the same, certain details vary, such as the Shortsword diagonal-attack ability.

As for the potions, there are three Potion of Healing cards in the US Hero Quest set. They are part of the 24 Treasure Cards listed in the Contents section of the Instruction Booklet under 66 Playing Cards. If they are missing, you could print out the scans from yeoldinne, make the cards, and even sleeve them and the rest of the Treasure Cards so that they wouldn't be discerned in a random draw. I believe certain Ebay auctions also have cards available if you don't want to do the work. I definately recommend playing with the Potions of Healing, as Quest survival is difficult in the US version without them.
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Sean Turner
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I do have the potions of healing in the treasure stack, I thought there may be an "indicator" cards similar to the weapon cards to show someone has a potion. for instance in the last quest we did, There was a potion of healing in one of the treasure chests. I thought that there may be a card that I could give him to hold to indicate that he has a potion.
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tocoking wrote:
BlackSimon wrote:
scout13 wrote:
I think that is the long sword that can attack diagonally



I was curios and checked it again, but in the German version, we have the following melee weapons:

Short Sword - 2 dice, diagonally, 150 gold, not for the wizard
Axe - 2 dice, 150 gold, can be cast in a straight line, not for the wizard


WHAT! The Short Sword in the German edition could attack diagonally? Then finally a mysterie from the past has been solved. In the Dutch version, the short sword was useless. But this extra diagonal abilty makes it useful.


That might not be the only reason. If I recall in the rulebook, when a character dies and there is no one in the room to recover their stuff, he loses all his tresure for that quest and equipment. If this was true then it would give a reason to buy another weapon with the gold they had stocked up before this quest. (Since it is only treasure on that quest lost....e.g. what they have on them, not necessarly what is in the bank)

But the other side of this is that they can just create a new character. However, it might be more beneficial to just buy a new shortsword if you have enough gold to buy armor too...rather than start fresh.

Also the Elf starts with the Shortsword.
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Sean Turner
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Ok, so one other question. Even with a staff, the Wizard only holds one combat die? There is no way to get him up to two? I thought that the staff would give him a bonus die. IF this is not the case, I have some trouble on my hands. It is already a fight to not be the wizard, what is going to happen now that the wizard can only roll one die. IS there anyway to boos his attack?
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Kevin Riddle

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I also allow the wizard to pick any 3 spells and then the elf, then the wizard gets all the other spells

Years ago I allowed the wizard to learn one spell to use twice, kind of like a scroll
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Saltone wrote:
I have a couple other HQ questions.

First, the Wizard was killed by a wandering orc, and still had his healing spell. The rules state that he can save himself by drinking a potion or casting a spell on himself. But I thought he could only cast spells on his turn. So the Wizard had to remain dead. If this is case, then when can the wizard ever save himself by casting healing? He will never be killed by a monster on his turn, and if he takes damage from a chest, he will already have used his action for that turn opening the chest. Can healing be cast at anytime?


A Healing Spell may be cast by a Wizard (or Elf) after his turn to save himself. While you are correct that only one action is allowed in the Wizard's turn (in this case casting a Healing Spell), p.22 and 23 of the Instruction Booklet contains the rules that are exceptions to this general rule:

"How A Hero Escapes Death
As a Hero, if your Body Points have been reduced to zero, there are two situations where you can save yourself:...

...2) If you are a spellcaster with a Healing spell, and you have not already performed an action on your turn, you can be healed by casting the spell on yourself.
"

There are a few situations that could arise where the Wizard would actually need to cast a healing spell on himself after his turn, mainly due to poor play or bad luck. First, assume the Wizard and any number of Heroes are outside of a new room and open the door. There are one or more monsters within, and the Wizard (low on Body Points) rolls too low on movement to get an adjacent attack in. He also wants to conserve his combat spells (or he has already cast them), so he moves a little away if possible, outside the door. Any other Hero that enters the room to fight moves to a monster, but a pathway is left open to the door. On Zargon's turn any surviving monster that has the movement can move to or through the door and attack the Wizard, bringing him to zero Body Points. If the Wizard still had Water of Life or Heal Body, he could then cast it and save himself from death, as he didn't take an action on his turn.

Second, the Wizard (2-4 Body Points) and any number of Heroes could be in a narrow corridor with one or more monsters in a line. The Wizard forfeits his attack because he is behind an attacking Hero that goes last. He also doesn't cast a spell because he already used his combat spells, or he wants to save them for later. The Hero in front of the Wizard fails to kill the monster, but he is already low on Body Points and decides to retreat behind the Wizard and any other Heroes. On Zargon's turn the exposed Wizard is then attacked and reduced to zero Body Points. The Wizard hasn't yet taken an action, so he can again save himself with a healing spell.

Third, the Wizard and all but one Hero use their turns defeating the monsters in a room. They also end their movement so that the last player isn't eligible to be attacked by a wandering monster (probably surrounded in a corner or surrounded against a wall). Searching the room, the last player reveals a wandering monster. As it can't be placed adjacent to the searching Hero, Zargon has it attack the Wizard instead and reduces him to zero Body Points. Hope the Wizard has a Healing spell left so that he can save himself and cover for bad strategy.

Fourth, there are certain traps that are timed so that a Wizard can move into a room with no obvious actions needed, then the Wizard could be reduced to zero Body Points and need to cast a Healing Spell. Consider Quests from the Quest Book of the Main System:

Quest 5, Melar's Maze, contains a Gargoyle that doesn't attack until a Hero opens a certain door. If that Hero has his turn after the Wizard, it's possible for the Gargoyle to reduce the Wizard to zero Body Points.
Quest 10, Castle of Mystery, contains teleport squares that can unexpectedly drop another Hero on a Wizard that hasn't yet needed to take an action, requiring a life-saving Healing Spell.
Quest 11, Bastion of Chaos, has a Gargoyle trap similar to the one found in Quest 5.
And then there are the Quests from the expansions....

Last (that comes to mind), the Wand of Magic artifact "...allows the Elf or Wizard to cast two separate and different spells on his turn instead of one single spell." While the second situation under How a Hero Escapes Death specifies that you can only cast a Healing Spell on yourself if you haven't already performed an action, I'd say the specific text of the artifact card trumps the general rule of the Instruction Booklet. Looking at games in general, specific rules printed on cards take precedence over general rules listed in the core rulebook. Therefore, I think it reasonably fits the logic of the rules that the Wizard still has the ability to cast an aditional Healing Spell, and he may do so after his turn. Simply substitute "performed an action (cast both spells with the Wand of Magic)" for "performed an action" in the p.23 second situation of How A Hero Escapes Death.

This highlights an interesting rules conflict. The Wizard or Elf can cast a Healing Spell out of turn to save himself, but the next paragraph says he can't cast it on another Hero out of turn. I'd houserule that inconsistency and allow a Wizard or Elf with a Healing Spell that still could be cast after his turn to be used on another Hero, as long as the Hero could be seen.

 
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Sean Turner
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garygnu wrote:
Saltone wrote:
I do have the potions of healing in the treasure stack, I thought there may be an "indicator" cards similar to the weapon cards to show someone has a potion. for instance in the last quest we did, There was a potion of healing in one of the treasure chests. I thought that there may be a card that I could give him to hold to indicate that he has a potion.

Page 16 of the US Instruction Booklet explains things under How A Hero Searches For Treasure:

"...If there is no special treasure called out to Zargon in the Quest Book, you, as a Hero, must draw a random card from the Treasure Card deck and read it aloud. The card could offer you a variety of things, including riches and magical potions. Record any gold coins or potions on your Character Sheet. These "valuable" Treasure Cards (gold coins and potions) are NOT returned to the treasure deck until the next Quest...."

The Treasure Card is the "indicator" card for the Quest it is drawn in. Later, a player must rely on his Character Sheet record, as the potion card is replaced back into the Treasure Card deck to possibly be drawn again in the next Quest.


I understand all of the above, But in the second quest, there is a treasure chest that gives gold and a healing potion. This is not a treasure card. It is by order of Zargon (the GM). Therefore there is no healing potion card for that player to hold. It is not that big of a deal, just pointing it out.
 
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Saltone wrote:
I do have the potions of healing in the treasure stack, I thought there may be an "indicator" cards similar to the weapon cards to show someone has a potion. for instance in the last quest we did, There was a potion of healing in one of the treasure chests. I thought that there may be a card that I could give him to hold to indicate that he has a potion.

Page 16 of the US Instruction Booklet explains things under How A Hero Searches For Treasure:

"...If there is no special treasure called out to Zargon in the Quest Book, you, as a Hero, must draw a random card from the Treasure Card deck and read it aloud. The card could offer you a variety of things, including riches and magical potions. Record any gold coins or potions on your Character Sheet. These "valuable" Treasure Cards (gold coins and potions) are NOT returned to the treasure deck until the next Quest...."

The Treasure Card is the "indicator" card to be held by a player for the Quest it is drawn in. Later, a player must rely on his Character Sheet record, as the potion card is replaced back into the Treasure Card deck to possibly be drawn again in the next Quest.
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Saltone wrote:
Second, Why would you ever buy a short sword? The elf carries a dagger,with the same attack, and dwarf already carries a short sword. The Barbarian has a Broadsword which deals more damage. Of course the wizard can not carry one. Am I missing something? It seems to me that it is a useless weapon. Unless the Dwarf throws his dagger and then needs a weapon. but it really seems like a waste.

New to the game, so thanks for the help.


This was already answered briefly, but to reiterate and expand, the US Character Cards for the Elf and the Dwarf both show the starting weapon as the Shortsword. That is the main purpose for the weapon. Also mentioned earlier, it can make a decent Artifact.

But to answer your question, it could become advantageous to buy the Shortsword in a few situations. First, the Chaos Spell Rust can be cast on a Hero's metal sword, rendering it useless. The victimized Hero will want to buy a new weapon pronto, and he may only have enough gold coins for the Shortsword.

A Quest could also be designed where the Heroes are captured and their weapons aren't available. Perhaps a Shortsword is found on a Weapons Rack. Or maybe the best option is just to escape with enough gold coins to buy a Shortsword. [Having a stash of gold coins in a "bank" is a house rule that could make this less of a problem, but the game rules don't provide for such a luxury.]

A weapon could be lost in other ways. The Barbarian Quest Pack has Ice Gremlins that can steal a weapon from a Hero rather than attack. If a Hero was using a Crossbow for example, an Ice Gremlin could steal his Battle Axe or Longsword. If funds were low, it might be necessary to purchase a Shordsword between Quests as a temporary solution.

 
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Saltone wrote:
Ok, so one other question. Even with a staff, the Wizard only holds one combat die? There is no way to get him up to two? I thought that the staff would give him a bonus die. IF this is not the case, I have some trouble on my hands. It is already a fight to not be the wizard, what is going to happen now that the wizard can only roll one die. IS there anyway to boos his attack?


The "enchanted staff" answer is correct, but I'll define it a bit more for you. The US Game System contains an Artifact Card called the Wizard's Staff: "...It can be used only by the Wizard, giving him the attack strength of two combat dice and the ability to strike diagonally." It is found in Quest 12 of the Quest Book.

That's a bit of a wait. Unfortunately, the Wizard is famous for being the least desirable Hero in the US system. The problem originates from the differences between the European versions and the US Game system that you own. For the most part, monsters in the earlier EU versions of Hero Quest only have 1 Body Point. This original design is more balanced against the Wizard's spells, as many will one-shot the monsters. The US Game System later changed monsters's Body Points to make combat more interesting (at least many people feel this is the case).

House ruling could help here. A simple fix could be to award the Wizard's Staff in an earlier Quest. I'd suggest Quest 5 or 6, as they both feature spellcasters.

You could also/instead start the Wizard out with an elemental set of spells that he can cast twice. Simply 'tap' or rotate the spell 90 degrees the first time a spell is cast, then flip it when it is cast a second time. You could additionally insert a bonus Artifact after X Quests are completed. This Wizard Book allows another elemental set to be cast twice. I'd recommend not awarding extra spells until a full set or two of Quests is completed, or nearly so.

There are also many official expansion (Wizards of Morcar, Elf Quest Pack) and fan-created spells you could print out and award in place of extra castings. Check this site and others linked from here. Old Scratch's Forum and Ye Old Inne are two good places to start.
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