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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Converted monsters a bit too strong? rss

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Shawn Hubbard
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Just got my conversion kit a few days ago and was eager to put it to use, so we played "The Overlord Revealed" yesterday for our campaign. For my opens I chose Hellhounds, Sorcerers, and Blood Apes. The party had the female Berserker, male Disciple, male Thief, and female Necromancer.

The heroes got TRASHED. It wasn't a sneak through and complete the objective before heroes could react victory. It was monsters beating everyone's faces in. They managed to seal the Runelock of Power and stopped Sorcerers of spawning but the Apes and Hounds demolished the rest of the party, an ape grabbed the key, and off he went to victory.

Was this a strategy failure on the heroes part? They split 2-2 with Berserker and Thief going to the Power lock and Cleric and Necro guarding the key. Or is this a situation where it might be better for random open groups to avoid focus fire scenarios?
 
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Albert
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I have a similar exerience last night. Played the first encounter of Castle Daerion and the OL picked sorcerers(cabin) and nagas (river).

With sorcery, the sorcerers were doing on average 3-6 damage....Killed through 3 villagers easily and knocked out two heroes. The nagas just got trashed through so I just spawned more sorcerers at the end. None of the 2nd edition monster groups did that much damage....

Edit: I'm hoping one experience isn't enough to make a judgement....but red+blue die ranged on many of the large monsters? >_< Heroes used to deal with large monsters by immobilizing them, hitting them then moving away our of range to stay safe. Now they literally have nothing they can do....LOS is so wide, its hard to find a spot to stay out of range.
 
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Herwig Riedl
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i hope not, i really would like to use my old models without breaking the game.
 
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Kostas K.
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FFG is notorious for lack of playtesting and imbalance issues. Combine that with a conversion kit that introduces 48 heroes and 50 monsters which also had to come out at the same time as the base game, and this kind of problem should be expected (it still sucks, though).
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Chris Leigh
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Unless the overlord has infiltrated ffg and it's all part of his master plan.....

Mwah hahahahaha
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Paul Paella
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I'm strangely happy to hear the Conversion Kit monsters are a bit tougher than the baseline game. We've only played a couple of the quests, but we had concerns about the monsters being nothing more than fodder. In one of our games an entire group of 5 monsters was obliterated on the first turn, before they had a chance to do anything. In the same encounter a master shadow dragon was slain before it did anything.

Even though we haven't played through many of the quests, I was starting to wonder if the experience progression greatly favored the party. Character skills and items upgrade but, until the 2nd act, only the Overlords cards get upgrades and, with how quickly our monsters were dying, there is no guarantee the Overlord will even draw these cards in an encounter. I thought maybe the Act 2 monsters would be good step toward balancing the party/OL balance but the Act 2 monsters are just a little bit better, and only have a couple of extra HP, which probably won't make any difference when the party is upgraded. Our games felt a lot like 1e where monsters were smoked instantly and rarely got more than 2 turns of play, if even 1 turn. :|
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Brent Lloyd
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I agree with Paul, many of the monsters just seem to crumble in the onslaught from the Heroes.

The Heroes also seem like rubber. There is a cleric in our group and the heroes just keep getting healed and bouncing back into the action.

Dead on the OL turn, healed and bouncing back to attack twice on their turn. The only penalty for knocking out a Hero is to cost an action for the Cleric. Maybe I just have not figured out the best way to deal with this yet.

Peace
 
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Mike Russo
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There seems to be an almost equal number of threads on here saying that the OL is overpowered as their are that say the heroes are overpowered. That either means that this game is actually well balanced and people just haven't figured out the best strategies yet, or the game is susceptible to wild swings in outcome (perhaps due to luck of the OL card draws).

Haven't played my copy yet (just got it in the mail today ) so I'm just speculating.
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Albert
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el_chupacabra wrote:
There seems to be an almost equal number of threads on here saying that the OL is overpowered as their are that say the heroes are overpowered. That either means that this game is actually well balanced and people just haven't figured out the best strategies yet, or the game is susceptible to wild swings in outcome (perhaps due to luck of the OL card draws).

Haven't played my copy yet (just got it in the mail today ) so I'm just speculating.


You see differing opinions about the base 2nd edition set. But with the new monsters in the conversion kit, particularly being able to roll 6+ damage with one sorcerer attack on a first quest (before the heroes pick up any good gear) seems kinda unreasonable to me.

I feel like there should have been some sort of monster 'progression' where you unlock more powerful monsters as the campaign progresses. And the initial monsters are still better in certain configurations and/or utility.

Again, until I play more with the new monsters, I can't confirm that it really does mess up the game that much.

I just immediately noticed that the OL monsters were knocking out heroes a lot more frequently than before.
 
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Lorenzo Sasso
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It's the hardcore soul of 1ED monsters taking overdevil
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Mike Russo
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I'm not doubting the original poster, especially since FFG putting something out that needs to be changed is definitely not far fetched, but I have to ask if you were using staying within the limits of the number of creatures you can have for the number of heroes you were using? Perhaps it was just a slight rules violation.
 
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Jon Martin
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I've noticed a lot of people ignoring the monster environment type rules for open groups as well. You can't choose just any monsters for your opens, they have to be from a very narrow list.
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Shawn Hubbard
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Both environment types and monster groups were correct. If you look at Overlord Revealed, the environment list is huge. I think the only monsters I couldn't use were Giants, Elementals, and Merriods.

I'm sure that strategy plays a part too. Maybe the heroes should have had one person do the running instead of 2, or maybe they should have all stayed put and fought the initial waves. It's one of the few quests (maybe the only one) I don't see a clear victory strategy for on the hero side.
 
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Sam Welbaum
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Given that the skills the heroes get to learn are insane...the OL needs stronger monster options to have a chance
 
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Brian
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So far, I haven't noticed any additional resiliency on the part of the monsters from the conversion kit compared to the ones included with second edition. I have been killing the heroes a bit more frequently here, but that has nothing to do with the monsters, since dice are dice and surges are almost always +1 or +2 damage, minion or master-depending.
 
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Scott Sanders
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The master Blood Ape can Leap Attack twice in a turn due to his Ravage ability. Thats pretty hard core.
 
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Mike Russo
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kryth wrote:
The master Blood Ape can Leap Attack twice in a turn due to his Ravage ability. Thats pretty hard core.


Nope. Read the description of leap on the back of the card. It says, "Limit once per turn."
 
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Albert
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Bilson wrote:
So far, I haven't noticed any additional resiliency on the part of the monsters from the conversion kit compared to the ones included with second edition. I have been killing the heroes a bit more frequently here, but that has nothing to do with the monsters, since dice are dice and surges are almost always +1 or +2 damage, minion or master-depending.


I agree. But sorcery 2 and sorcery 4 on 4 sorcerers in a 4 player game really hurts. Especially since range is a lot easier to roll. The other monsters seem more reasonable.
 
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Athos
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Last night I got destroyed by kobolds in Act II! Those are some nasty critters!
 
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Scott Sanders
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Missed that, thanks Mike.
 
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Justin Smith

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TheBurd wrote:
el_chupacabra wrote:
There seems to be an almost equal number of threads on here saying that the OL is overpowered as their are that say the heroes are overpowered. That either means that this game is actually well balanced and people just haven't figured out the best strategies yet, or the game is susceptible to wild swings in outcome (perhaps due to luck of the OL card draws).

Haven't played my copy yet (just got it in the mail today ) so I'm just speculating.


You see differing opinions about the base 2nd edition set. But with the new monsters in the conversion kit, particularly being able to roll 6+ damage with one sorcerer attack on a first quest (before the heroes pick up any good gear) seems kinda unreasonable to me.

I feel like there should have been some sort of monster 'progression' where you unlock more powerful monsters as the campaign progresses. And the initial monsters are still better in certain configurations and/or utility.

Again, until I play more with the new monsters, I can't confirm that it really does mess up the game that much.

I just immediately noticed that the OL monsters were knocking out heroes a lot more frequently than before.


Overall the new creatures do add a lot of diversity and power to the OL. No base creature can stun, multiple new creatures can like Razorwings, Medusa, and Giants. There are simply tons of Kobalds which are great against parties without a blast type attack. Lots more creatures with multi-attacks like Blood Apes, Hellhounds, Lava Beetles, and Crypt dragons, many of which have good base damage anyhow. No base creature has close to the Giant's pure HP. (Which starts higher than some some heros with a black defense) Not to mention Chaos Beasts which can just be silly if the Heroes get their hands on a nice weapon early. Deep Elves who basically tell every starting hero "You have no shields, ever". Razorwings who move as fast as Goblins, but have fly, which is better than scamper.

Now this doesn't really obsolete the base creatures, but with 25 new critters over the base of only 9, and many of the base creatures forced to deploy anyhow, I don't see me using them much as open groups anyhow. Diversity is always an improvement, I think the real power here lies in the OL being able to customize his open groups far better for each encounter.

TheBurd wrote:
Bilson wrote:
So far, I haven't noticed any additional resiliency on the part of the monsters from the conversion kit compared to the ones included with second edition. I have been killing the heroes a bit more frequently here, but that has nothing to do with the monsters, since dice are dice and surges are almost always +1 or +2 damage, minion or master-depending.


I agree. But sorcery 2 and sorcery 4 on 4 sorcerers in a 4 player game really hurts. Especially since range is a lot easier to roll. The other monsters seem more reasonable.


There is no critter with sorcery 4 as far as I know. Actually, since Sorcerers only get to turn one red dice into a yellow by act 2, counting their Sorcery their damage only goes up by about 1/3 of a health per attack, and they get 1/3 less surge on average. So really, Sorcerers are probably one of the worst act 2 scaling creatures in the game.

Heck, Skeleton archers don't get any dice increase, but since all 3 of their powers get better they scale better.
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Mr Suplex
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I agree that some of the monsters are much stronger than in the base game, but have you looked at some of the heroes? I think the only fair thing to do is to play monsters from the conversion kit in a campaign where heroes were allowed to choose conversion kit heroes.
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