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Subject: Kill a monster? rss

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Daniel
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I rolled my dice, than I use the card to kill a monster, is the monster killed before or after I put my dice on a task? Because a task would be more easy, if i kill the monster before?
 
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Chris Lawson
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Gynson wrote:
I rolled my dice, than I use the card to kill a monster, is the monster killed before or after I put my dice on a task? Because a task would be more easy, if i kill the monster before?

It might help if you downloaded and read the official FAQ.

Quote:
What do items mean when they say "defeat" a monster?

When a player uses an item/spell that "defeats" a monster,
that player chooses a monster in play (not necessarily
at the same adventure his investigator is at) and turns
that monster facedown. None of the monster’s costs must
be paid (such as advancing the clock or losing sanity/
stamina) and all of that monster’s tasks are considered
to be completed. The monster is collected as a trophy
when the player’s turn ends (and not before), whether the
investigator succeeds at the adventure or not. Note that if
a monster is only partially covering a task, any uncovered
parts of the task are still uncompleted for purposes of
succeeding at the adventure.


So, in answer to your question (at least, I think this is your question), you do not put any dice on the Monster if you use an Item/Spell card to defeat a monster.
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Daniel
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Thanks a lot! But what should i do if i have a partial monster task?

1. I roll my dice
2. I kill the monster
3. I put some dice on the task??

because there are different "monster killer spells" one i can use before and the other after rolling my dice

Sorry, don't get it....
 
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Chris Lawson
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Gynson wrote:
Thanks a lot! But what should i do if i have a partial monster task?

READ...THE... F...A...Q...

From my post above.
Quote:
Note that if a monster is only partially covering a task, any uncovered parts of the task are still uncompleted for purposes of succeeding at the adventure.

You defeat the monster (and turn it face-down) but you still need to complete the remaining part of the partial monster task to resolve the adventure.

If you don't, then the adventure isn't resolved but the monster was still defeated.
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Maddock Krug
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xris wrote:
Gynson wrote:
Thanks a lot! But what should i do if i have a partial monster task?

READ...THE... F...A...Q...

From my post above.
Quote:
Note that if a monster is only partially covering a task, any uncovered parts of the task are still uncompleted for purposes of succeeding at the adventure.

You defeat the monster (and turn it face-down) but you still need to complete the remaining part of the partial monster task to resolve the adventure.

If you don't, then the adventure isn't resolved but the monster was still defeated.


So true.
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Mark L
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Gynson wrote:
Thanks a lot! But what should i do if i have a partial monster task?

1. I roll my dice
2. I kill the monster
3. I put some dice on the task??

because there are different "monster killer spells" one i can use before and the other after rolling my dice

Sorry, don't get it....

I don't think the FAQ is entirely clear on this point.

Yes, Daniel, you're right. The card can kill the monster, but if it's a partial monster task you still need to put dice on the other symbols or the task is not completed. However, the monster is defeated regardless, and you take it as a trophy at the end of your turn.

I actually think both monster killer cards should be used after rolling the dice, but I don't have the game in front of me, so I can't be sure unless you remind me exactly what they are.
 
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Seth Pontiff
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New question. Does killing a monster with that card count as completing a task? Or do you still have to throw away one die for the next roll as if you failed a task?
 
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Chris Lawson
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Fryd Pickles wrote:
New question. Does killing a monster with that card count as completing a task? Or do you still have to throw away one die for the next roll as if you failed a task?

Here's a reply I made in another thread on the subject.

The official FAQ tells us this.

Official FAQ wrote:
What do items mean when they say "defeat" a monster?

When a player uses an item/spell that "defeats" a monster,
that player chooses a monster in play (not necessarily
at the same adventure his investigator is at) and turns
that monster facedown. None of the monster’s costs must
be paid (such as advancing the clock or losing sanity/
stamina) and all of that monster’s tasks are considered
to be completed. The monster is collected as a trophy
when the player’s turn ends (and not before), whether the
investigator succeeds at the adventure or not. Note that if
a monster is only partially covering a task, any uncovered
parts of the task are still uncompleted for purposes of
succeeding at the adventure.

There are two "defeat a monster" Items.

Bind Monster (Spell)
Discard to defeat 1 monster

Flute of the Outer Gods (Unique Item)
Discard after rolling to defeat one monster

Both work in the same way (ignore the fact one states "discard after rolling" while the other just says "discard").

You roll the dice and then decide if you want to play the card or not. It doesn't matter if you have failed or succeeded in completing a task or not, you decide if you want to play the card after you roll the dice.

If you do play the card you select any monster in play and turn it face down (meaning that you will collect it at the end of your turn as a trophy). If the monster contained any locked dice then they become immediately available for use (green dice go into your dice pool while the yellow / red die become available). If the monster had "Advance the Clock" or Sanity / Stamina losses associated with it then they are totally ignored.

For me the big unanswered question is does playing a "defeat a monster" item count as the one task you are allowed to complete.

According to an (unofficial) reply I had from Richard Launius, he stated that it does. This means that if you failed to complete a task, you could play a "defeat a monster" item and avoid having to discard a die. Of course, it also means that if you play a "defeat a monster" item then you are not allowed to use any of the dice you just rolled to complete a task!

While the rules or FAQ do not directly state it, I think it is clear that if you use a "defeat a monster" item then you do not have to discard a die if you failed to complete a task with the rolled dice (because after all you did complete a task, the monster task you just defeated).

But if using the "defeat a monster" item means you did complete a task (i.e. the defeated monster task) then you should not be allowed to complete another task with the dice you just rolled! Not unless you are Amanda Sharpe that is.
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Seth Pontiff
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Actually you don't get the dice that may have been locked on the monster token. I just read that in the FAQ and the revised rulebook on the FFG website. You get those dice after you either fail or pass the adventure.
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Mark L
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Fryd Pickles wrote:
Actually you don't get the dice that may have been locked on the monster token. I just read that in the FAQ and the revised rulebook on the FFG website. You get those dice after you either fail or pass the adventure.

Wow, that's new.

I can't see it anywhere in the FAQ (and I think if it was there we'd have noticed before now), but you're quite right about the revised rulebook.

Revised rules wrote:
If a player completes a monster task, he collects the monster marker at the end of his Resolution phase, returns any dice
locked by the monster marker to next to the entrance sheet (unless there are multiple locks that apply to it), and follows any instructions on the reverse side of the marker.


That contradicts what the original rulebook said:

Original rules wrote:
Until that Adventure card is resolved, the Mythos card is no longer in effect, or the task on that Monster marker is complete, that die may not be added to die rolls and its result may not be used to complete tasks.


That clearly implies that when a Monster marker is complete, any Locked dice on it are freed.

I hadn't noticed that had changed. Good spot!
 
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Chris Lawson
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Thank you FFG, it seems hiring a new Editor / Proof-reader didn't help get the rules consistent or streamlined....

Fryd Pickles wrote:
Actually you don't get the dice that may have been locked on the monster token. I just read that in the FAQ and the revised rulebook on the FFG website. You get those dice after you either fail or pass the adventure.

I'm still not convinced of this. Based on what the FAQ and revised rulebook states I would suggest there is an alternative interpretation.

Lets look at the revised rulebook, page 17.

Revised Rulebook, page 17 wrote:
Completing Monster Tasks
A player completes a monster task by satisfying its requirements
with rolled die results, just like any other adventure task.

If a player completes a monster task, he collects the monster
marker atthe end of his Resolution phase, returns any dice
locked by the monster marker to next to the entrance sheet
(unless there are multiple locks that apply to it), and follows any
instructions on the reverse side of the marker.


If a player completes a monster task there are three steps:-

1) he collects the monster marker at the end of his Resolution phase

2) he returns any dice locked by the monster marker to next to the entrance sheet (unless there are multiple locks that apply to it)

3) he follows any instructions on the reverse side of the marker.

I think those three instruction are separate. "at the end of his Resolution phase" only applies to step 1, there is no reason to think they should also apply to steps 2 and 3.

Step 2 and 3 apply straight away so for step 2 you return the locked die as instructed (i.e. you do not wait until the end of your turn, you do it once you have defeated the monster).

Later in the rules (page 17), it also states

Revised Rulebook, page 17 wrote:
Defeating Monsters with Items and Spells
Some items or spells instruct the player to defeat a
monster. When using such an item or casting such a
spell, the player chooses any monster in play and flips
its marker facedown, ignoring all of its tasks.

The FAQ also notes that you flip the monster marker over once it is defeated. If the monster marker is flipped over then the Locked die icon is no longer visible, it is no longer active.

So, for me, both the official FAQ and revised rules tell me to flip the defeated monster marker over. I can only take this to mean the Locked die icon is no longer active.

Official FAQ, page 5 wrote:
What do items mean when they say "defeat" a monster?

When a player uses an item/spell that "defeats" a monster,
that player chooses a monster in play (not necessarily
at the same adventure his investigator is at) and turns
that monster facedown. None of the monster’s costs must
be paid (such as advancing the clock or losing sanity/
stamina) and all of that monster’s tasks are considered
to be completed. The monster is collected as a trophy
when the player’s turn ends (and not before), whether the
investigator succeeds at the adventure or not.

Again, this states that the defeated monster is turned face down and then at the end of your turn the defeated monster is collected as a trophy. The fact that you have to wait until the end of your turn to collect the defeated monster has nothing to do with the timing of turning the defeated monster over. That is done as soon as the monster is defeated. Since there is no Locked die icon visible, then the die is no longer locked at that point.

Anyway, that's my interpretation but play it the way you see fit
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Phill Webb
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xris wrote:
Since there is no Locked die icon visible, then the die is no longer locked at that point.

Anyway, that's my interpretation but play it the way you see fit


It's a semi-plausible interpretation of the locked die icon.

Let's stretch it to include the dice assigned to the task as well.
Since the task icons are no longer visible how about we put the dice assigned to them back into the dice pool? cool

Phill
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Trevin Beattie
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xris wrote:
Thank you FFG, it seems hiring a new Editor / Proof-reader didn't help get the rules consistent or streamlined....

Fryd Pickles wrote:
Actually you don't get the dice that may have been locked on the monster token. I just read that in the FAQ and the revised rulebook on the FFG website. You get those dice after you either fail or pass the adventure.

I'm still not convinced of this. Based on what the FAQ and revised rulebook states I would suggest there is an alternative interpretation.

Lets look at the revised rulebook, page 17.

Revised Rulebook, page 17 wrote:
Completing Monster Tasks
A player completes a monster task by satisfying its requirements
with rolled die results, just like any other adventure task.

If a player completes a monster task, he collects the monster
marker atthe end of his Resolution phase, returns any dice
locked by the monster marker to next to the entrance sheet
(unless there are multiple locks that apply to it), and follows any
instructions on the reverse side of the marker.


If a player completes a monster task there are three steps:-

1) he collects the monster marker at the end of his Resolution phase

2) he returns any dice locked by the monster marker to next to the entrance sheet (unless there are multiple locks that apply to it)

3) he follows any instructions on the reverse side of the marker.

I think those three instruction are separate. "at the end of his Resolution phase" only applies to step 1, there is no reason to think they should also apply to steps 2 and 3.


Why would steps 2 and 3 precede step 1 rather than follow it?
 
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Chris Lawson
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Freeloading Phill wrote:
xris wrote:
Since there is no Locked die icon visible, then the die is no longer locked at that point.

Anyway, that's my interpretation but play it the way you see fit


It's a semi-plausible interpretation of the locked die icon.

Let's stretch it to include the dice assigned to the task as well.
Since the task icons are no longer visible how about we put the dice assigned to them back into the dice pool? cool

Not quite

You only flip the monster marker over when you use one of the Defeat a Monster Items.

The second half of my post was in reference to those Items so you only flip the Monster marker over when you use a Defeat a Monster Item.

When you complete a Monster task using the normal method (i.e. by meeting the dice requirements) you do not flip the Monster marker over. Under those conditions you follow the rules which now specifically state that you remove any Locked dice from the marker, and you do that as soon as you complete the monster task (not at the end of your turn).
 
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Mark L
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Huh.

First of all, Chris, I agree with the others that the revised rules definitely say that you remove locked dice at the end of the Resolution phase.

I see what you're saying, but by your interpretation, you would obey any instructions on the reverse of the monster chit (e.g. "return this to the cup and take 1 clue token") before actually taking the chit off the adventure, which makes no sense.

However. This is hardly the first time published rules have been unclear, or even that say the opposite of what they are intended to say. And FFG are particularly bad at making their rules clear. It is entirely possible that you are meant to release locked dice immediately. But the revised rules say the opposite. Perhaps they weren't intended to, but they do.

But without any official word on whether this is a deliberate change or a mistake (anyone want to try pulling that particular tooth?), I guess all we can do is make our own decisions.

(Sigh.) shake
 
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Chris Lawson
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Trevin wrote:
xris wrote:
Thank you FFG, it seems hiring a new Editor / Proof-reader didn't help get the rules consistent or streamlined....

Fryd Pickles wrote:
Actually you don't get the dice that may have been locked on the monster token. I just read that in the FAQ and the revised rulebook on the FFG website. You get those dice after you either fail or pass the adventure.

I'm still not convinced of this. Based on what the FAQ and revised rulebook states I would suggest there is an alternative interpretation.

Lets look at the revised rulebook, page 17.

Revised Rulebook, page 17 wrote:
Completing Monster Tasks
A player completes a monster task by satisfying its requirements
with rolled die results, just like any other adventure task.

If a player completes a monster task, he collects the monster
marker atthe end of his Resolution phase, returns any dice
locked by the monster marker to next to the entrance sheet
(unless there are multiple locks that apply to it), and follows any
instructions on the reverse side of the marker.


If a player completes a monster task there are three steps:-

1) he collects the monster marker at the end of his Resolution phase

2) he returns any dice locked by the monster marker to next to the entrance sheet (unless there are multiple locks that apply to it)

3) he follows any instructions on the reverse side of the marker.

I think those three instruction are separate. "at the end of his Resolution phase" only applies to step 1, there is no reason to think they should also apply to steps 2 and 3.


Why would steps 2 and 3 precede step 1 rather than follow it?

Because

(i) the official FAQ listed those steps in a different order. The FAQ did say that you carried out Step 3 first and then Step 1 after.

(ii) In a PM reply, Richard Launius also said that the monster marker was flipped first and at the end of the turn the monster was collected as a trophy.

Actually, I wasn't really saying that Steps 2 and 3 precede Step 1. What I'm saying is that even if Step 1 says "he collects the monster marker at the end of his Resolution phase", why should "at the end of his Resolution phase" apply to Steps 2 and 3? It is part of Step 1 and Step 1 only.
 
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Mark L
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xris wrote:
the official FAQ listed those steps in a different order. The FAQ did say that you carried out Step 3 first and then Step 1 after.

It did? Where?

Quote:
What I'm saying is that even if Step 1 says "he collects the monster marker at the end of his Resolution phase", why should "at the end of his Resolution phase" apply to Steps 2 and 3? It is part of Step 1 and Step 1 only.

Is it? You've divided it up into steps in that fashion, but the rules didn't do so. They just had a comma, so it seems perfectly reasonable to suppose that the things which come after "at the end of his Resolution phase" in that sentence should be done after the end of his Resolution phase in the game.

Devil's avocado, that's me!
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Chris Lawson
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xipuloxx wrote:
xris wrote:
the official FAQ listed those steps in a different order. The FAQ did say that you carried out Step 3 first and then Step 1 after.

It did? Where?

Page 5
Official FAQ, page 5 wrote:
What do items mean when they say "defeat" a monster?

When a player uses an item/spell that "defeats" a monster,
that player chooses a monster in play (not necessarily
at the same adventure his investigator is at) and turns
that monster facedown. None of the monster’s costs must
be paid (such as advancing the clock or losing sanity/
stamina) and all of that monster’s tasks are considered
to be completed. The monster is collected as a trophy
when the player’s turn ends (and not before), whether the
investigator succeeds at the adventure or not.

It first says that you turn the monster marker face down and then it says you collect the monster trophy at the end of your turn.
xipuloxx wrote:
Quote:
What I'm saying is that even if Step 1 says "he collects the monster marker at the end of his Resolution phase", why should "at the end of his Resolution phase" apply to Steps 2 and 3? It is part of Step 1 and Step 1 only.

Is it? You've divided it up into steps in that fashion, but the rules didn't do so. They just had a comma, so it seems perfectly reasonable to suppose that the things which come after "at the end of his Resolution phase" in that sentence should be done after the end of his Resolution phase in the game.

And in the FAQ there are full stops instead of a comma.

To me it seems perfectly reasonable to suppose that "at the end of his Resolution phase" only apply to that which comes before and doesn't apply to the rest.

But that's my opinion. How you interpret it is up to you. Devil's advocate, that's me!

And as both you and I have said many a time, the rule writing capability of FFG are not exactly the highest of standards.
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Mark L
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xris wrote:
xipuloxx wrote:
xris wrote:
the official FAQ listed those steps in a different order. The FAQ did say that you carried out Step 3 first and then Step 1 after.

It did? Where?

Page 5
Official FAQ, page 5 wrote:
What do items mean when they say "defeat" a monster?

When a player uses an item/spell that "defeats" a monster,
that player chooses a monster in play (not necessarily
at the same adventure his investigator is at) and turns
that monster facedown. None of the monster’s costs must
be paid (such as advancing the clock or losing sanity/
stamina) and all of that monster’s tasks are considered
to be completed. The monster is collected as a trophy
when the player’s turn ends (and not before), whether the
investigator succeeds at the adventure or not.

It first says that you turn the monster marker face down and then it says you collect the monster trophy at the end of your turn.

But turning it over isn't the same as following the instructions on the reverse side ...

I agree you turn it over immediately. But following instructions (like "return this monster to the cup and take 1 clue token"!) -- that comes at the end of your turn.

Seriously, I don't think the FAQ applies in this case.

And my point about commas wasn't about commas vs. full stops -- just that you're the one dividing it up into 3 discrete points; the rules don't do so. So it's fair to say that it's all of a piece in the rules, rather than 3 separate things.

Quote:
And as both you and I have said many a time, the rule writing capability of FFG are not exactly the highest of standards.

Oh, absolutely! It's just that, IMO, what you're saying is not what the rules say. What they intended to say is another question...
 
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Trevin Beattie
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xris wrote:
xipuloxx wrote:
xris wrote:
the official FAQ listed those steps in a different order. The FAQ did say that you carried out Step 3 first and then Step 1 after.

It did? Where?

Page 5
Official FAQ, page 5 wrote:
What do items mean when they say "defeat" a monster?

When a player uses an item/spell that "defeats" a monster,
that player chooses a monster in play (not necessarily
at the same adventure his investigator is at) and turns
that monster facedown. None of the monster’s costs must
be paid (such as advancing the clock or losing sanity/
stamina) and all of that monster’s tasks are considered
to be completed. The monster is collected as a trophy
when the player’s turn ends (and not before), whether the
investigator succeeds at the adventure or not.

It first says that you turn the monster marker face down and then it says you collect the monster trophy at the end of your turn.


I saw that, but that part of the FAQ is talking about defeating a Monster using an item or spell. I thought we were discussing completing a monster task.
 
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Steve Duff
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The revised rules were written after the faq, they should take precedence.

I agree with the others, the locked dice aren't freed until your turn is over.
 
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Matthew McFarland
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Okay, there is an answer, but you have to look in a few places to find it (unfortunately). The (revised) rules actually state that you must defeat a monster to unlock a locked die (pp 12). So, if you use a spell to defeat a monster, that monster is immediately defeated and flipped face-down ignoring all of its tasks(pp 17), however you only collect the token after your turn is over (again, pp 17; I feel this is specifically for partial and total monster tasks if you don't complete the adventure). A locked die is part of the monster task and is no longer in effect as the effect that has locked it has been resolved (pp 12, 16).

I should note that I only feel this is the case specifically for the "kill a monster" spells; regular monster fights say nothing about flipping monster tokens over and ignoring any related tasks.
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