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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Verifying Stealthy monster ability rss

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Ethan
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Hey all, I just keep wanting to second guess myself so I thought I'd check other peoples knowledge of the rules.

A few of the monsters in the conversion kit have the ability Stealthy.

Stealthy: Each attack that targets this monster must roll 3 additional range beyond the normally required amount or the attack is a miss.

1. I believe that this ability only affects ranged attacks, as melee attacks don't check for range 1 just that they are adjacent.

2. I also take it to mean a ranged attack would need a total range on the dice of 4 or greater to hit an adjacent monster with the Stealthy ability.

Anyone able to point out a rules contradicting that? As I often play the Overlord I'd much prefer them able to stealth on melee attacks as well.
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Jon Ben
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Certainly a ranged attack from an adjacent space needs 4 range. 3 more than 1 is typically 4.

However, 3 more than 0 is usually 3. I'm not sure how you can motivate, based on the text, ignoring this ability for melee.

I was also a bit suspicious upon first reading the ability, but a straight reading of card seems pretty unambiguous.


EDIT:
The official answer for those uninterested in reading 4 pages. Thanks to Triu for getting this response from FFG.
Adam Sadler wrote:
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 5:43:23 PM
Subject: Re: Fantasy Flight Games [Rules Questions] - Descent: Journeys in the Dark Second Edition

Hi Triu,

The stealthy ability requires melee attacks to roll at least 3 range to hit. Melee attacks usually require 0 range (even with Reach), so 3 is all the range the attack would need.

Thanks,
Adam Sadler
Managing Game Designer
Fantasy Flight Games
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Scott Lewis
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JonBen wrote:
Certainly a ranged attack from an adjacent space needs 4 range. 3 more than 1 is typically 4.

However, 3 more than 0 is usually 3. I'm not sure how you can motivate, based on the text, ignoring this ability for melee.

Well, if one is going to rule that Melee attacks are subject to range rules also, it would still be the 3+1; the only way you'd have a range 0 attack is if you were attacking your own square.

In practice, this would mean that any Melee attack that uses only blue and red dice would miss 50% of the time, whereas blue and yellow dice weapons would hit only slightly more. (The same would be true to adjacent ranged attacks, though many ranged weapons at least have surges that add range, whereas no melee weapons do).

I don't think Melee weapons were intended to be bound by Range. In the rulebook, the "check range" section starts by talking about Ranged attacks.
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Jon Ben
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Perhaps you're right but the card doesn't say melee attacks are subject to range rules it just says you need 3 more range than normal. Normally you need zero...

The rules in the book are broken by cards, in fact that's a rule

Maybe they just took for granted that we would understand that melee attacks are exempt. I don't know. You have to admit though that you usually need zero and 3+0=3.

I'm not saying my reading of the card is right, I'm definitely willing to think about this and hear people's arguments.
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Scott Yost
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rulebook pp .9 says
Quote:
Check Range: When performing a Ranged attack, the attacking
player must roll enough range to reach the target.


so I'd argue that melee attacks never check range, and can never fail due to stealthy.
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Tristan Angeles

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Stealth in D1e was an extra dice with nothing on it but two extra sides that had misses for a whopping 1/3 chance to miss. That with the regular miss on attack die makes it about 44% chance to miss any incoming attacks.

That seems in line with stealth chances if everything needed the extra range. Including melee. And from a thematic sense, why would stealth only apply to range. That plus the fact that cards break standard rules and you have very strong cases that stealth is made for all attacks and not just ranged
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Igor Pushkar
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K, my two cents.
Quote:
Cards and abilities take precedence over both the Quest Guide and this rulebook

Range attacks need range plus 3, melee attacks need at least 3 to hit.
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Jan Probst
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Yostage wrote:
rulebook pp .9 says
Quote:
Check Range: When performing a Ranged attack, the attacking
player must roll enough range to reach the target.


so I'd argue that melee attacks never check range, and can never fail due to stealthy.

Agreed.
 
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Chris J Davis
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My reading of the ability is that melee attacks require a minimum of 3 range to hit.
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Evan Stegman
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Yostage wrote:
rulebook pp .9 says
Quote:
Check Range: When performing a Ranged attack, the attacking
player must roll enough range to reach the target.


so I'd argue that melee attacks never check range, and can never fail due to stealthy.


I'd argue that melee attacks normally don't check range. There is nothing in the rules that says they never do regardless of effects.
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Robert Danielson
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The RedEye wrote:
Stealth in D1e was an extra dice with nothing on it but two extra sides that had misses for a whopping 1/3 chance to miss. That with the regular miss on attack die makes it about 44% chance to miss any incoming attacks.

That seems in line with stealth chances if everything needed the extra range. Including melee. And from a thematic sense, why would stealth only apply to range. That plus the fact that cards break standard rules and you have very strong cases that stealth is made for all attacks and not just ranged


I was initially thinking that this could not effect melee attacks but upon further investigation I find I agree with The RedEye 100%. The math works out that the worst possible melee weapons gain an additional 16.6% chance to miss and many melee weapons would not even be effected that strongly.

IMHO the math works, is similar to the power of D1e, and the theme works when this is applied to all attacks, including melee.

 
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Jon Ben
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Well I'm glad some people read it the same way as me. The more I thought about it the more I agreed with myself

The wording on the card is purposefully inclusive there really is no other interpretation. The percentages working out is interesting but people should be cautious making assumptions about how strong things are, or how similar to 1e they ought to be. The only way you can think there is a problem applying this to melee is to start with an incorrect assumption.
 
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Allan Clements
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Melee attacks do not check range. So this has no effect on melee attacks.
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Jon Ben
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Kamakaze wrote:
Melee attacks do not check range. So this has no effect on melee attacks.


Or stated a different way:
Melee attacks usually require zero range.

They so easily could have said "Each ranged attack that targets this monster". Instead the just said "Each attack". Sounds like melee falls under this category to me.
 
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JonBen wrote:
Kamakaze wrote:
Melee attacks do not check range. So this has no effect on melee attacks.


Or stated a different way:
Melee attacks usually require zero range.

They so easily could have said "Each ranged attack that targets this monster". Instead the just said "Each attack". Sounds like melee falls under this category to me.


Sorry that is not stated a different way those are completely different statements. Melee attack do not check range means range for melee is not applicable. NA+3 is still NA. 0 is not the same as NA.
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Jon Ben
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Ratcur1 wrote:
JonBen wrote:
Kamakaze wrote:
Melee attacks do not check range. So this has no effect on melee attacks.


Or stated a different way:
Melee attacks usually require zero range.

They so easily could have said "Each ranged attack that targets this monster". Instead the just said "Each attack". Sounds like melee falls under this category to me.


Sorry that is not stated a different way those are completely different statements. Melee attack do not check range means range for melee is not applicable. NA+3 is still NA. 0 is not the same as NA.


Parsing argument... stack overflow... NaN NaN NaN
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JonBen wrote:
Perhaps you're right but the card doesn't say melee attacks are subject to range rules it just says you need 3 more range than normal. Normally you need zero...

Where do you get "zero" from? If melee does require a range, it would be a range of 1 normally, unless you are attacking your own space.

IE, if Stealthy is going to apply to Melee, it would require a range of 4 (or 5 if using Reach), since there is nothing in the rules that I found that says melee attacks are range 0 by default.
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Ethan
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JonBen wrote:

Or stated a different way:
Melee attacks usually require zero range.


This thinking makes me inquire about a second issue.

If one assumes that Melee attacks require 0 range, what happens with the Reach ability? I doubt you'd be able to argue that a monster targeted with a Reach ability requires less than 2 range (assuming melee attacks check range).
From the Rule Book:
REACH
The Reach keyword allows the figure to use a Melee attack to target a
figure up to two spaces away, rather than only adjacent spaces. The target
still needs to be in line of sight

This would make targeting a Stealthy monster two spaces away with a Reach melee attack and hitting very unlikely, as it would require 5 range to hit. And if this logic is correct, Melee attacks on adjacent spaces should require 4 range to hit instead of 3, no?

So again, I still don't think Melee attacks, Reach or otherwise, check range and thus are unaffected by Stealthy.

Thanks for all the thoughts so far, I look forward to additional rules based input!

**Edit: Scott posted my thoughts while writing up.
 
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Jon Ben
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Granted the base rules don't have a 'check range phase' for melee. The stealthy ability does not ask you to convert melee attacks into range attacks it just says you need 3 more range for attacks.

A hero with reach can attack a monster 2 squares away with no range requirement. If the monster has slealthy the requirement is now 3 range.

This is really clear from the text I think you all are going out of your way to complicate things because you have the incorrect idea that this doesn't affect melee despite the fact that the wording is very inclusive of all attacks that target the monster.
 
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Robert Danielson
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sigmazero13 wrote:
JonBen wrote:
Perhaps you're right but the card doesn't say melee attacks are subject to range rules it just says you need 3 more range than normal. Normally you need zero...

Where do you get "zero" from? If melee does require a range, it would be a range of 1 normally, unless you are attacking your own space.

IE, if Stealthy is going to apply to Melee, it would require a range of 4 (or 5 if using Reach), since there is nothing in the rules that I found that says melee attacks are range 0 by default.


Maybe I can sum this up as I see it. Maybe not.

Things I think everyone can agree on:

Nobody is saying that melee attacks normally check range and need one range to hit (or two for reach). It is clear on a normal melee attack that those attacks do not require any range to hit.

The rules clearly state that the check range step applies to ranged attacks. (Step 3 on page 9 of the rulebook).

The Card with the Stealthy power overrides the rulebook default rules.

Range attacks require 3 more range when attacking a Stealthy Target.

Things people may not agree on:

Does it also force Melee attacks to do the check range step (Step 3 on page 9 of the rulebook).

If it does force this step is the correct procedure for a melee attack to count the range or simply need a minimum range roll of 3?

My personal opinion is that the card forces melee to check range needing a flat value of 3 or greater. Mainly because that is what the card says and the card overrides the rulebook but also because it makes sense, is not overpowered, works thematically, and is very similar to (but weaker than) D1e.



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Igor Pushkar
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I'll tell you my position and I believe that in FAQ it will be the same.

In 1e you had to roll stealth die in addition to your normal roll if you attack figure with stealth (heroes can gain it in 1e with potions). Stealth die has 2 X and 4 blank sides. It just forces you to miss more often.

In 2e Stealthy means: Each attack that targets this monster must roll 3 additional range beyond the normally required amount or the attack is a miss.

As for me it is improved version of 1e stealth because the more distance you shoot from the harder to hit target, but melee has a better chance to hit on stealth (in 1e it was equal to magic/range/melee). And if you shoot from adjacent space you need 1+3 range. It's clear. Let's get back to melee.

With normal attack, even if you roll no yellow die, you can get X/2/3/4/5/6. If you attack stealthy figure you need to roll 0+3. What it means. You will get X/X/3/4/5/6. I hear that you telling me, that melee attacks don't check for range. Please, hear me.

Quote:
Rule Book. Page 18.
The Golden Rules
There are a few very important rules that players should always
keep in mind when playing Descent: Journeys in the Dark
Second Edition. These rules are as follows:
• Many quest rules listed in the Quest Guide come
in direct conflict with the rules found in this
rulebook. The quest rules listed in the Quest Guide
take precedence over the rules in this rulebook.
Furthermore, some cards and abilities will come in
direct conflict with rules found in this rulebook and
the Quest Guide. Cards and abilities take precedence
over both the Quest Guide and this rulebook.


This ability overrides your normal rule from rule book. You get nothing but increased chance of miss on attack. 33% instead of normal 17%. The same for melee attack with reach.

As for checking range for melee.
Quote:
must roll 3 additional range beyond the normally required amount

Melee not forced to check for range, it forced to roll 3 additional range to required 0 (nothing, void, any-number, call-it-whatever-you-want).
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Tristan Angeles

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Stealthy doesn't require you too check range. It just requires extra range too hit. It doesn't matter that melee doesn't have a range check, that's not required, just three more than what IS required. Since melee requires nothing, it now needs three
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Robert Danielson
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soddy wrote:
As for checking range for melee.
Quote:
must roll 3 additional range beyond the normally required amount

Melee not forced to check for range, it forced to roll 3 additional range to required 0 (nothing, void, any-number, call-it-whatever-you-want).


The RedEye wrote:
Stealthy didn't all you too check range. It just requires extra range too hit. It doesn't matter that melee doesn't have a range check, that's not required, just three more than what IS required. Since melee requires nothing, it now needs three


I agree and like how you guys made it more clear for me.
 
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Allan Clements
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So how does this affect Leoric's heroic feat?

"This attack ignores range and targets each figure adjacent to you"

Does this mean that if a stealthy monster is targeted by Leoric (as well as some other monsters) if he does not roll 3 or higher range, the whole attack misses?
 
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Kamakaze wrote:
So how does this affect Leoric's heroic feat?

"This attack ignores range and targets each figure adjacent to you"

Does this mean that if a stealthy monster is targeted by Leoric (as well as some other monsters) if he does not roll 3 or higher range, the whole attack misses?


The attack ignores range; including the +3...
 
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