Recommend
6 
 Thumb up
 Hide
25 Posts

Tokaido» Forums » Strategy

Subject: What is the strategy in this game? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Brad McKenzie
Thailand
Bangkok
Bangkok
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Don't get me wrong. Visually, it's gorgeous. It's about Japan, which is another huge plus. Plus, I own 7 Wonders and Takenoko and love them both. Tokaido is an instant buy for me.

I just don't get the strategy. I've been reading the rules and trying to figure out how best to move. The best I figure is to always make the shortest move possible, so that you can stop at as many places as possible and pick up whatever goodies are related to that tile.

Has anyone who has playtested this game comment on the strategy? Is it best to aim for one type of place (as many souvenir stands as possible, for example), or is it better to aim for a variety of stops. If it is the latter, then I suppose you'd always want to stop make the shortest progression along the board possible...

I'm repeating myself now. Time to stop. I'm looking forward to buying this one, and can't wait for more information to be provided...
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
boardgamemuse
United States
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
It's interesting. The designer in another thread said that he designs simple games now and not the ones like Ghost Stories.

soblue


But one day i hope that he turns back time and releases something with more meat.


To each his own, but I would imagine the majority of us on BGG roll that way.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Antonio Ferrari
Italy
Bagnolo Cremasco
Cremona
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sorry but I don't agree. After reading the rules, I like it and hope to buy it soon. It's not so complex, but I see all meat necessary for families.

Takenoko is one of the best games of Essen 2011... I hope this one will have the same success ...

4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin B. Smith
United States
Mercer Island
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I am curious about this as well. Like you, I immediately thought that stopping at every location might maximize your points.

There are 2 cases I can see where getting there first gives you an advantage:
1. At the inns, you get first choice of which menu item to buy.
2. Whoever completes each panorama first gets a bonus.

Neither of those seems strong enough to overcome all the "most of" bonuses that would be easier to get if you stop everywhere.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad McKenzie
Thailand
Bangkok
Bangkok
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I wonder if indeed it will be the inns that determine victory. If you're first at each inn, you will, if I understand the rules correctly, have the best chance at purchasing each meal type for the cheapest price. I'm assuming that when it says that meals cost one, two, or three coins that cards with the same meal on them have differing prices. As they are all worth six regardless of their price, getting there first may help secure 24 points. The only other option that scores as well, from what I've gathered from studying the rule book, would be the panoramas. Of course, you would need to stop at 3 of them, or purchase 3 different souvenirs, in order to score six points.

So, I guess while you may stop at every spot along the way, you will be paying for expensive meals. Not to mention, people in front of you can also stop more frequently if you don't push ahead. I suppose it'll be a balance.

I suppose as well your character's special ability may also influence how you play. Hmmm... there may be more depth here than I originally thought. Shame we'll have to wait until October to find out...
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Antoine Bauza
France
Valence
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
peakhope wrote:
I am curious about this as well. Like you, I immediately thought that stopping at every location might maximize your points.


You will try to stop as many locations in the first section of the game, yes, but then you will have to skip locations to maximize your score, 'cause it's a collection mechanism (be the first to finish a landscape, be the first to eat to have choice, take the farm location because it's the only way to earn money and there are majority bonuses to earn too, etc...).

Moreover you can play it "soft" (it's a family game after all) or be tricky and take the locations the other players want

So yes, it's not a deep-strategy game but most of my hardcore playtesters found it attractive at their own level of play/exigence. I hope you will too ! If not, your mother/sister/girlfriend maybe will and that will make me an happy designer

Antoine
34 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
rob
United Kingdom
Okehampton
Devon
flag msg tools
sounds good to me.
best wishes antoine, keep knocking them out and I will probably keep buying (funds providing)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Gerrits
Belgium
Leuven
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The main mechanism and source of tension seems to be the same as in Egizia: take many actions but without having much choice what to take or jump ahead to take superior (for you) actions.

It works really well in Egizia, the strategy of just always taking the first available action certainly doesn't work there. I'm not yet sure how good it'll work in this game because of a few changes which seem to lessen tension and the need to push forward:
- Last player always moves (Tokaido) instead of clockwise order (Egizia)
- Even the last player at the inn can still get lucky and get good food instead of limited number of places at the Egizia construction sites
- No real penalties for missing out on certain things in Tokaido
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad McKenzie
Thailand
Bangkok
Bangkok
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Runkst wrote:
The main mechanism and source of tension seems to be the same as in Egizia: take many actions but without having much choice what to take or jump ahead to take superior (for you) actions.

It works really well in Egizia, the strategy of just always taking the first available action certainly doesn't work there. I'm not yet sure how good it'll work in this game because of a few changes which seem to lessen tension and the need to push forward:
- Last player always moves (Tokaido) instead of clockwise order (Egizia)
- Even the last player at the inn can still get lucky and get good food instead of limited number of places at the Egizia construction sites
- No real penalties for missing out on certain things in Tokaido


I had never heard of Egizia before - thanks for introducing me to it. I can definitely see the similarities in mechanic. I wonder if the tension in Tokaido will come from a shortage of money. I would imagine if there is no tension to move forward, the tension must come from limited cash. I still think that it will be key to get to the inns first to have first choice of available meals, as they seem to be the fastest way to earn money. I would imagine as well that there will be greater tension in the game when more people play, as there will be greater need to rush to desired points on the road before others claim them.

I'm off to watch some Egizia videos. Hopefully I've found a new game to buy...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mathue Faulkner
United States
Austin
TX
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Runkst wrote:
The main mechanism and source of tension seems to be the same as in Egizia: take many actions but without having much choice what to take or jump ahead to take superior (for you) actions.

It works really well in Egizia, the strategy of just always taking the first available action certainly doesn't work there. I'm not yet sure how good it'll work in this game because of a few changes which seem to lessen tension and the need to push forward:
- Last player always moves (Tokaido) instead of clockwise order (Egizia)
- Even the last player at the inn can still get lucky and get good food instead of limited number of places at the Egizia construction sites
- No real penalties for missing out on certain things in Tokaido

It's even closer to Glen More in mechanic since the last player always moves. In Glen More, however, players collect tiles and there are penalties for having too many tiles.

Having said that, I don't see any reason to not trust Bauza on this one. He's not exactly a novice in game design...
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Antoine Bauza
France
Valence
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mfaulk80 wrote:

Having said that, I don't see any reason to not trust Bauza on this one. He's not exactly a novice in game design...


Thanks

I never played Glen More but it's quite the same main mechanism than Egizia, yes (I discovered this one after designing the first step of Tokaido in fact). The playing experience is quite different, though, offering a "journey mood" was my first intention when designing Tokaido...

If you are looking for a hardcore game, you are right to have concerns Tokaido is far lighter than Egizia ! I put some variants in the rules for "gamers" but it's still a light game (sorry for that ninja)
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad McKenzie
Thailand
Bangkok
Bangkok
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
toinito wrote:
mfaulk80 wrote:

Having said that, I don't see any reason to not trust Bauza on this one. He's not exactly a novice in game design...


Thanks

I never played Glen More but it's quite the same main mechanism than Egizia, yes (I discovered this one after designing the first step of Tokaido in fact). The playing experience is quite different, though, offering a "journey mood" was my first intention when designing Tokaido...

If you are looking for a hardcore game, you are right to have concerns Tokaido is far lighter than Egizia ! I put some variants in the rules for "gamers" but it's still a light game (sorry for that ninja)


Nope, the theme is actually what draws me to your game over the others. I like the fact it is something that I can play with my family without a lot of overly complicated rules. I'll leave it up to my gaming buddies to purchase the heavier fare...
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
W. Eric Martin
United States
Apex
North Carolina
flag msg tools
admin
designer
badge
Avatar
Milano wrote:
Runkst wrote:

- Even the last player at the inn can still get lucky and get good food instead of limited number of places at the Egizia construction sites
- No real penalties for missing out on certain things in Tokaido

I think it will work better (house rule?) if the first player at the inn will go first. That way the player chooses; "should I be the first at the inn, get to choose the first food and be the first to choose my next stop, or should I take my time".

Geez, at least try the game a few times as designed and published before suggesting house rules! Give Bauza some credit that the rule makes sense in this game before assuming that a reading of the rules gives you a better idea of what works and what doesn't.
26 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad McKenzie
Thailand
Bangkok
Bangkok
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree that it is a little too early for introducing house rules. That said, the order of travelers leaving the inns is something to think about. I'm guessing that arriving early is such an advantage that it balances things a little if the last person arriving leaves first. If you were the last to arrive at an inn in a 5-person game, you would, at best, have two meals to choose from. It seems quite likely that you would not or could not be able to purchase what was on offer. Leaving first could help offset things. Of course, rushing off to the nearest inn and letting stragglers stop at every tourist site along the way behind you would also be quite damaging.

Do cards collected stay face up in front of a player or remain hidden? I can't remember reading that in the rules. I suppose they would be hidden, or else blocking would become too easy...

4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
W. Eric Martin
United States
Apex
North Carolina
flag msg tools
admin
designer
badge
Avatar
bradandmary wrote:
Do cards collected stay face up in front of a player or remain hidden?

They stay face up, so yes, blocking will come into play: taking the meals that others might want, buying souvenirs that might complete sets for other players, shooting for the Hot Springs bonus, and so on.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Bond
United Kingdom
Banstead
Surrey
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
W Eric Martin wrote:
Geez, at least try the game a few times as designed and published before suggesting house rules! Give Bauza some credit that the rule makes sense in this game before assuming that a reading of the rules gives you a better idea of what works and what doesn't.


I couldn't agree more. It amazes me how someone who has spent, what?, 30-60 minutes reading the rules can think he or she can improve a game that has undergone many tens if not hundreds of hours of development and testing - without ever having played the game!

Unfortunately this appears to be happening more and more frequently here on BGG. It is the price that is paid by authors who kindly make their rules available ahead of time.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Antoine Bauza
France
Valence
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
geocentrix wrote:
It is the price that is paid by authors who kindly make their rules available ahead of time.


Publisher's choice in fact
I'm not fond of rules preview for my part, because the rules is not the game. In Tokaido, I doubt you can appreciate the playing experience by reading the rules... But as I design light games, maybe it's good that harcore gamers can read the rules so they cannot be disapointed by the game later...
13 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Bond
United Kingdom
Banstead
Surrey
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
toinito wrote:
But as I design light games, maybe it's good that harcore gamers can read the rules so they cannot be disapointed by the game later...


I must commend you on your comments in this thread about the weight of this game - you are certainly warning hard-core games not to expect a hard-core game. Many other authors would have kepy quiet and let the purchaser beware!

I like a mixture of light and heavy games, so this is definitely going to be a purchase for me (as was 7 Wonders, but not Takenoko). In terms of "weight", how would you rank those three games? Is it:

7 Wonders > Tokaido > Takenoko?

(as if "weighing" a game was that easy - you do have weighing scales, don't you? )

Just out of interest...
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Antoine Bauza
France
Valence
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
geocentrix wrote:

7 Wonders > Tokaido > Takenoko?

(as if "weighing" a game was that easy - you do have weighing scales, don't you? )


I think Takenoko > Tokaido in terms of rules complexity
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
rob
United Kingdom
Okehampton
Devon
flag msg tools
I think (at least personally speaking) there is a place for games of all weights in life, to match what you feel like (a bit of balance). I just like mechanisms, imagination and things that suggest more to the brain than there may actually be, it is also a great excuse to spend time with fellow humans. My other half and i are keep a very simple little abstract game on the boil and we just take a turn when we walk past and feel like it. I love it, there's a sort of continuity over the days.
Different games for different times is healthy I reckon if your a lifestyle gamer, and after that it is just personal choice.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nisses Clan Skryre
Belgium
Gent
flag msg tools
mbmb
So, all this said and done, end of the year, has anybody tried Tokaido a few times?

To me, it seems that the lack of tension is definitely there. I'm already only taking the same amount of meals as there are players.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Jones
United States
Evansville
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Check the Great Big Table podcast (http://greatbigtable.com), a podcast about expanding the board game hobby.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have played it around ten times now. I love it.

To me, it is almost like an unrolled rondel game of sorts. I can see the similarities to Glen More, a game I also enjoy.

While the game is light, I think there is more strategy in the game than most people realize. There are multiple ways to maximize points and you may need to shift between them as places along the path open up and/or are cut off from you.

You should also never underestimate the value of being the first to leave the Inn (and by necessity, the first to enter it). You need to weigh how long to stay on the path before rushing to the Inn in order to secure first choice along the path in the next round.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin B. Smith
United States
Mercer Island
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
morlockhq wrote:
You should also never underestimate the value of being the first to leave the Inn (and by necessity, the first to enter it).

The author of the rulebook wrote:
Arriving at an Inn
...
The first traveler occupies the space nearest the road, and later travelers form a line after him.
...
Continuing the journey
...
The last traveler on the route – that is, the one farthest from the Inn – takes the next turn and starts out on the road again.

There are advantages to being first into the inn, but leaving first is not one of them.

Having played a few times, I agree there are definitely more strategies/tactics, and decisions to be made, than a lot of people think. I have lost a couple games by 12-16 points, which is well beyond any difference that I can blame on drawing "2" hot springs cards instead of "3", or getting unlucky with encounter or souvenir draws.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Jones
United States
Evansville
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Check the Great Big Table podcast (http://greatbigtable.com), a podcast about expanding the board game hobby.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't know why I said that after all. Looking back at the rules, that is how we play. I guess my thinking is actually the reverse, That you probably want to hang back and get to the inn later in order to have the first crack at the next section.

I've also noticed, at least with the groups that we've played with, that few people pay enough attention to making donations to the temples. That's a 10 point bonus at the end for the first player, higher then any other end scoring bonus by itself.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Carrey
Canada
flag msg tools
After a quite a few games I've found a way to make Tokaido slightly more competitive. Play with the starting gold and inn rules located in the back of the instruction book, but make ALL achievements worth 5VP instead of 3VP. This makes set collecting more important, and forces players to really think about when they take which action as just taking the next available spot rarely becomes the best option.

Excellent game, keep up the great work!

@Antoine Bauza
Maybe after a few of my games hit the shelf we can talk.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.